[NickBull]

@PStokes 109403 wrote:

Any recommendations on an ice free way into DC from the Custis Trail? The MVT and Roosevelt Bridge are not ridable. How is the 14th Street Bridge and MVT to the Four Mile Run trail?

Depends where in DC. Key Bridge is clear. Surface streets afterwards are clear.

[NickBull]

@hozn 109402 wrote:

Similar conditions this AM, yes. In general there were enough slick sections on the trails that I found it worthwhile to have the studded tires on still. I realize that doesn’t help you much if you don’t have studded tires. I wouldn’t do the commute by trail yet on slicks if that was all I had, but I might have braved it tomorrow (assuming melting today) … IF it wasn’t going to snow tonight.

Yup, looks like we’re getting snow tonight. Yay. I knew there was something missing from this week’s “winterness”.

Even if we only get an inch of snow it could make riding very sketchy. Right now, you can see the singletrack bare pavement and the cliffs to the right and left of it. But with an inch of snow it could be hard to distinguish those cliffs, with potentially nasty consequences. This has been an unusual winter riding season. I think I’ve used my studded tires more this year than any year since 2008 (?) when we had those back-to-back three foot snowfalls.

[NickBull]

14thSt -> Mt Vernon Trail -> Custis

Riding on Nokian Extreme studded tires. As others have noted, the west end of the 14th St bridge is a sheet of rutted ice. The guy who was ahead of me on gnarly cyclocross tires managed to traverse it with a bit of flintstoning but the guy a hundred yards behind me riding on narrow slicks went down. He was going slowly though and was already getting up as I watched so I didn’t turn back. After the humpback, the MtV was mostly singletrack bare pavement with 4″ high walls of snowy ice or icy snow, but in many places the singletrack was slightly-rutted ice and there was a 1/4 mile segment where it was so rutted that I could not ride it and had to go off-trail to where the snow was only three to five inches deep. I expected the wooden bridge to be bad but it was actually no problem. Someone passed me in the Roosevelt parking lot and it looked like he was just riding big 29-er MTB tires, not studded, but I couldn’t tell for sure.

It’s unclear whether staying on the Arlington side of the river is faster or slower than the DC side for my trip from the Custis to the fish market. The Arlington side is shorter, I think. The DC side has its own 1/4 mile segment by the volleyball courts that’s unrideable except by going off trail, but the rest is a mile of singletrack vs 2 miles on the Arlington side. But I like the more rural character of the Arlington side, plus I’ve ridden the DC side every day for a week, so I’ll probably ride the MtV again tomorrow.

Nick

[NickBull]

@AFHokie 108977 wrote:

…I worked in military aviation; a profession that occasionally tried to kill me and successfully did some of my friends. It’s a risk that’s part of the job. I also know that in nearly every aviation crash not a result of an instantaneous catastrophic mechanical failure, combat, or weather; exist multiple points that if somebody had done something different it would’ve broken the chain leading to the crash.

I doubt you’ll agree, but your decisions/actions contributed to the crash. …

I actually do agree, in a limited sense, because I no longer assume that no cyclist could be so monumentally stupid as to deliberately accelerate head-on toward another cyclist. So when I see another cyclist riding toward the on-ramp to the trail, I slow down just in case. Though there is, of course, some danger to being rear-ended in that curve, by another cyclist who doesn’t expect you to slow down when you clearly have the right of way.

However, despite every caution that can possibly be applied, sometimes (as I’m sure you found in your aviation career): Shit Happens. If you are the only person in humankind to whom this does not apply, then apply for sainthood Otherwise, the only way to avoid being in an accident on your bike with 100 percent certainty is to never ride your bike.

I don’t use Strava so I don’t know what a Strava segment is. I find your comments about the Strava comments confusing. On the one hand, you seem to be all in favor of riding conservatively to avoid accidents. On the other, you seem to want to put down anyone who comments on Strava to try to have the same effect. Maybe if I saw the comments I would understand better where you’re coming from.

I do notice that if I google for “Strava Custis” that the section from its west end to the top of Rosslyn Hill has been marked as “Dangerous” and Strava isn’t keeping records for it, but the section that includes the entire Custis trail to the Intersection of Death at N. Lynn Street is apparently not “Dangerous” and Strava is keeping records, including a “KOM” who averaged 24mph. That hardly seems like a responsible business model to me, and is why I’ve had no interest in being on Strava.

Nick

[NickBull]

Fish Market -> Ohio Drive -> Rock Creek Park Tr -> Key Bridge -> Custis

All of that is easy going except the first 1/2 mile of Rock Creek Park Tr north of Ohio Drive. There are initially a lot of large iceballs thrown off by snowplows. Then by the volleyball courts, what had been drifted snow is now partially-melted but with icy ruts that are deep enough to catch your wheels and make progress dicey. Elsewhere, lots of singletrack that’s OK as long as you can stay within the lines–to the right or left if you make a little mistake then you are on rutted glare-ice that seemed slippery even on Nokian Extreme tires.

Nick

[NickBull]

@dbb 108910 wrote:

Just got feedback from DC 311 that it has been cleared.
…

Well, the approach heading west toward the bridge has been cleared 4′ wide right up to the start of the bridge. The rest of it is just like mikey’s photo. Easy going except for a vicious crosswind. Once across, I couldn’t force my way through the drift before the humpback bridge, but after walking it to the bridge it was nicely hardpacked (for studded MTB tires). Going up the river was very, very hard going. I rode down to the edge of the river where I could see grass and at least I could make progress. When I got to Memorial Bridge I decided not to try to continue on the river but instead crossed toward the Cemetery and then rode toward Iwo Jima on cleared trail and then surface streets, through Rosslyn and back to the Custis where everything is clear (though there are patches of ice across the trail–not bothersome on studded tires but something to watch out for, otherwise). I saw three other intrepid cyclists in Rosslyn.

This morning’s route was much easier: across Key Bridge, circling down and across the C&O and making my way to the Rock Creek Trail (nice, hard-packed snow) down the river to Ohio Drive, by the Jefferson and fish market and then on neighborhood roads. I saw two other cyclists in Georgetown in the morning but they stayed on surface streets.

Nick

[NickBull]

@dasgeh 108680 wrote:

There’s a large gulf between anecdote (your experience and the experiences of your friends) and data. The data doesn’t support your anecdotal experience. Bummer about your injuries. Sometimes you gotta slow down on the trail, even if it’s just to allow for others riding stupidly.

So now you’ve shifted to railing against bikes with a motor that don’t meet the federal standard? Those are in all likelihood not allowed on the Custis. But there aren’t a lot of those on the trails – not a lot of those have been sold. So mass enforcement of that particular rule is probably not a very good use of the limited acpd resources (as opposed to, say, stationing an officer at the corner of lee and Lynn).

Honestly, the trails could be a lot safer. But the unsafe users on the trail are not uniformly one group. I’m not entirely sure what you’re after. Should we try to get police to patrol our trails more? We have so many other places where the danger is lethal – mostly intersections with cars – that those are the priority. And the laws aren’t very clear cut. We’d have to change a lot of that in Richmond, but we have other priorities there too.

But the ire that I and others see you raise towards ebikes really seems misplaced. It sucks that you were passed by a rude guy.

Hi, Dasgeh,

I don’t think I’ve changed my tune, my initial post just asked whether there are rules regarding power and the next post in which I stated any view I said ” If electric motorcycles are limited to not having enough power to pass dangerously like this (uphill at high speed), then it’s a step in the right direction.”

Just responding to the point that not a lot of above-legal-power e-bikes have been sold. You may be right that not a lot have been sold, I don’t have the statistics. But if so, it’s not for lack of trying by some manufacturers. And there seems to be somewhat of a culture among some e-bike proponents of encouraging speed. For instance, Electricbike.com seems to have somewhat of a fetish for illegally-fast e-bikes, e.g.
https://www.electricbike.com/illegal-production-ebikes/
“Hats off to these companies for offering some fun bikes that are literally law breakers.” (The companies in question included Specialized and some smaller production companies.)

And in a recent (May 2014) Bicycle Times magazine article, the author was enthusiastic about the fact that his e-bike can hit 30mph without pedaling and was dismissive about the 20mph rule.

As to manufacturers, one of the biggest in the world, Specialized, is using speed as a selling point for their e-bikes: http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/ebike/turbo
“Highly discerning e-bike riders demand what only this bike can provide: the ultimate speed, performance, and sexy looks of a high-end Urban bike, with the added convenience of the smoothest, most powerful motor available. You don’t want to casually spin to work or around town, you want to own the road and even give cars a run for their money. … The Specialized Turbo S combines speed and style through an innovative electric-assist motor, advanced electronics, and sleek design. Capable of a top speed of 45 km/h*, the Turbo S delivers superhuman power to anyone who rides it.”

Felt, on the other hand, makes a point of saying that their e-bikes comply with the 20mph rule. Trek doesn’t say anything about speed.

Obviously, you are not a proponent of illegally-high-powered e-bikes. But it is troubling that even some of the biggest manufacturers make a point of selling their e-bikes using speed as a key selling point, and some e-bike proponents also have a speed fixation.

Nick

[NickBull]

@jrenaut 108643 wrote:

Compare Arlington’s beautifully cleared lanes with what’s supposed to be the crown jewel of D.C. lanes, the 15th St cycletrack. Completely unusable for 95% of those who’ve come to depend on it
…

Interesting. It looks like they plowed it, but with the blade so high that it left a layer of snow untouched.

[NickBull]

@AFHokie 108684 wrote:

Nick,
Since you’ve professed a hate for novice cyclists, I’ll ask the question. Your first time riding a bike; were you then an expert cyclist as you are now?

I’m sorry you were injured in a crash, but shouldn’t you also slow down by the TR Island parking lot? To experience injuries as you described suggests an amount of speed in an area most agree is a place often congested with pedestrian and cyclist traffic.

You can quit making generalizations; these links will help you out:
http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/Bicycle/
http://www.nhtsa.gov/Bicycles
http://www.pedbikeinfo.org/

I’ve got to ask; are you the guy behind ‘gems’ like these on Strava?

– “Flagged because KOM chasers pose a hazard to other users on this multi-use path”
– “It is not about a hazard to you, but the hazard you pose to others”

Find me the quote where I “professed a hate for novice cyclists.” I said I hate cyclists who endanger me. You like those cyclists?

I wasn’t in the parking lot. She was. 8am. Not congested. I was coming down the ramp from the curlicue Mt Vernon crossing and had just come around the corner so I was going about 10 to 12 mph. But by the time I realized she was accelerating instead of braking, there wasn’t time to completely stop before the ramp from the parking lot up to the trail, which was her objective. FWIW, the upshot was that having admitted fault, she bought me a new bicycle, having destroyed mine.

Never used Strava but the fact that you would quote those two items suggests you think they’re somehow inappropriate. To me, they seem like good advice. Do you think it is good to encourage racing on trails like the Custis?

[NickBull]

@dasgeh 108668 wrote:

Interesting. I actually look into data on this and most of the data I’ve seen (although very thin) shows that the slight majority of ebikes are bought and used by (1) people who need the motor for a medical reason or (2) bike with kids on their bike. not exactly groups known for their excessive risk taking. Logically, novice riders wouldn’t invest the money you need to get an ebike. Of course, you’ll always get a few jerks, but a rule banning ebikes from the trail won’t keep the jerks off – it’ll just kick the pregnant women riding with toddlers off. Is that really your goal?

Yes, the Custis needs to be wider and the trails in general need better maintenance. We would all be well served by a campaign to make those things happen (eg you can comment on vdot’s current I66 proposal and insist that the multimodal improvements include a widening of the Custis during the first phase). But as long as these trails intersect streets, as the Custis does, more bikes is still going to make you safer, because it’s still a lot less likely that getting hit by a bike is going to kill you than getting hit by a car.

You’re probably correct that you’re less likely to get killed on the trail than on the road. But I think the chances of serious injury per mile traveled are greater than driving. FWIW, the only serious accident I’ve been in was because a woman decided she just had to merge onto the bike path from the Roosevelt Island parking lot–to do so, she had to cross in front of me, and when she realized that she didn’t have time, her solution was to speed up, not put on the brakes. The impact sounded like the crunch that you hear during football games, broke my cheekbone leaving my face numb for half a year, and knocked several teeth loose that are still misaligned eight years later. Novice cyclist, she’d only been riding for a couple of months. As I mentioned in a previous post, my friend had his pelvis broken by a novice cyclist on his way to classes at Georgetown. My wife’s finger was dislocated when she was riding off the Roosevelt Bridge toward the parking lot and a cyclist coming off the wooden bridge cut in front of her and then crashed. I know a lot of people who have had injuries while commuting on the trails. I know few who have had injuries while driving. So I do think that potentially some rules and enforcement could potentially be a plus. If the frequency with which I see dangerous riders is any indication, it should be pretty easy for a bicycle-mounted police person to encounter them, too, and give them a ticket.

As to e-bikes — anything powerful enough to go up Rosslyn Hill at about 20mph without pedaling is way more powerful than the limit. On the flat, it would easily hit 30mph. How would your pregnant woman with toddlers feel about mixing it up with a bunch of e-bikes coming the opposite way on the Custis at speeds like that? For the last decade, I fairly-often have seen a woman who –ten years ago was riding a bike that let her haul a couple of kids — and now rides along with her ten-year-olds each on their own bikes. I sure wouldn’t want those kids to be on trails with e-bikes that can go at 30mph.

Frankly, a 20mph limit is still fast enough that it means that inexperienced riders are riding at speeds that usually can only be attained by more-experienced riders. It’s asking for trouble. But at least a 20mph limit is better than the 30mph that I’ve seen advertised and promoted by e-bike proponents, e.g. in Bicycle Times.

Nick

[NickBull]

@rcannon100 108667 wrote:

There. I disliked it too. My name is Robert Cannon.

Maybe if we were not so anonymous to you, you would find it harder to hate us. Why dont you come to a coffee club or a happy hour. There you will find people who ride ebikes, fixies, and are racing poseurs. Some are even actual racers. And all of them ride responsibly, dont put people at risk, and care about safety. I’m not saying there are not idiots out there – I’m saying being an idiot has nothing to do with whether you ride an ebike, fixie or racing bike. And making such sweeping generalizations doesnt help get us to solutions much.

BTW I take it NickBull is not the name your mama gave you – so, what’s your real name. You know, so we know you have courage.

I’d have thought that the fact that my posting name is NickBull and I sign most of my posts as “Nick” might be enough to help you figure out that the name my mother gave me was … Nick Bull. Look up “Nick Bull randonneuring”. I spend most of my free time on long-distance bike rides (200km +), as do most of my closest friends, so I haven’t really felt a need to leave for work early to go drink coffee at Swing’s. That doesn’t mean that I “hate” any of you–I only hate people who endanger my life by riding dangerously.

Nick

[NickBull]

@dasgeh 108620 wrote:

I don’t know where you’re getting this from, but you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about with respect to ebikes. Some people are jerks. Some of those people drive cars, some of them ride bikes and yes, some ride ebikes. But the nature of the ebike in itself actually makes it less likely someone is going to ride like a jerk – it’s easier to get up to speed, so there’s less incentive to preserve speed than with a traditional bike. Also, ebikes make it possible for people who couldn’t bike to be on bikes and by far the thing that makes you safer on a bike is to have more people biking.

You’re right that the laws and enforcement on trails on trails is not at the same level as on roads. The very simple explanation is that far, far more people die on roads, and specifically because of cars. So we spend a lot more of our public energy – writing laws and enforcing them – on roads.

I think 25 years of commuting on the Custis, roughly 4000 commute miles per year and an additional 5000 of long-distance weekend riding qualifies me as an observer of cycling and cyclists. The path has undoubtedly become more dangerous as it has become more crowded. More cyclists on the road make me safer. More cyclists on the path endanger me. Novice cylists are the worst; the single worst week of the year on the path is the week that starts with Bike to Work Day. Most electric motorcycle riders are novice cyclists, based on my observation of their riding patterns. But because they are riding on a powerful motorized bicycle, they can attain speeds that are otherwise only attainable by cyclists who are typically stronger and more experienced. However, unlike those more-experienced cyclists, the electric motorcycle riders do not understand the danger they are putting themselves and others into. I have seen this over and over again. Yes, there are bad cyclists of every stripe including the strong, fast riders–I’m sure that we have all had plenty of experience of them. But the share of electric motorcycle riders who ride dangerously is higher than the share of strong, fast cyclists. Maybe you are correct that they don’t _need_ to maintain speed, but as a practical matter they seem to behave as if they do, and are reluctant to put their brakes on.

The only plus that I can identify from more cyclists on the path is that it has finally convinced Arlington to plow. I have slightly mixed feelings about that, because one of the best things about winter was that only hard-core, experienced and safe cyclists rode in the winter. And now there are more novice cyclists like the one that caused this thread. And as soon as I get to the river, I still need my studded tires because no one but Arlington plows.

Nick

[NickBull]

@dasgeh 108620 wrote:

I don’t know where you’re getting this from, but you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about with respect to ebikes. Some people are jerks. Some of those people drive cars, some of them ride bikes and yes, some ride ebikes. But the nature of the ebike in itself actually makes it less likely someone is going to ride like a jerk – it’s easier to get up to speed, so there’s less incentive to preserve speed than with a traditional bike. Also, ebikes make it possible for people who couldn’t bike to be on bikes and by far the thing that makes you safer on a bike is to have more people biking.

You’re right that the laws and enforcement on trails on trails is not at the same level as on roads. The very simple explanation is that far, far more people die on roads, and specifically because of cars. So we spend a lot more of our public energy – writing laws and enforcing them – on roads.

I think 25 years of commuting on the Custis, roughly 4000 commute miles per year and an additional 5000 of long-distance weekend riding qualifies me as an observer of cycling and cyclists. The path has undoubtedly become more dangerous as it has become more crowded. More cyclists on the road make me safer. More cyclists on the path endanger me. Novice cylists are the worst; the single worst week of the year on the path is the week that starts with Bike to Work Day. Most electric motorcycle riders are novice cyclists, based on my observation of their riding patterns. But because they are riding on a powerful motorized bicycle, they can attain speeds that are otherwise only attainable by cyclists who are typically stronger and more experienced. However, unlike those more-experienced cyclists, the electric motorcycle riders do not understand the danger they are putting themselves and others into. I have seen this over and over again. Yes, there are bad cyclists of every stripe–I’m sure that we have all had plenty of experience of them. But the share of electric motorcycle riders who ride dangerously is much higher than the share of strong, fast cyclists. Maybe you are correct that they don’t _need_ to maintain speed, but as a practical matter they seem to behave as if they do, and are reluctant to put their brakes on.

The only plus that I can identify from more cyclists on the path is that it has finally convinced Arlington to plow. I have slightly mixed feelings about that, because one of the best things about winter was that only hard-core, experienced and safe cyclists rode in the winter. And now there are more novice cyclists like the one that caused this thread. And as soon as I get to the river, I still need my studded tires because no one but Arlington plows.

Nick

[NickBull]

@hozn 108606 wrote:

Well, take a look at the leaderboard for that segment.

If Strava is maintaining a leaderboard for people riding up Rosslyn Hill, then I would like to sue them pre-emptively for creating a hazardous condition on the bike path. No part of the Custis Trail should have a leaderboard on it; it is too narrow and twisty. If people want to race, they need to find somewhere to do it where the only person they endanger is themselves.

And … just to reply to the dislike from 83(b). Somehow, I just don’t find it particularly bothersome to know that some anonymous person who hasn’t enough courage to use their own name doesn’t like my post

[NickBull]

@dasgeh 108601 wrote:

There’s a federal law that defines a certain type of e-bike (motor only helps to 20mph). Those are generally excluded from the definition of motorized vehicles in the state/local laws around here. Many of the trails don’t have clear rules, or if they do, they predate the federal law, and the signs aren’t clear as to what they mean by “motorized vehicle”, though the natural reading would be whatever state/local law says. In other words, it seems like e-bikes are allowed on trails, but it’s not clear.

Looking at Strava, plenty of people ride uphill on the Custis faster than 15mph. It doesn’t matter what kind of bike you’re on – dangerous behavior is the issue.

There seem to be three groups of people who “can’t slow down” on the path: Electric motorcycle riders — maybe they’re scared that if they throttle down they won’t be able to get back up to speed and they know they’re too weak to do it otherwise; Fixie riders — they know how painful it’s going to be to lose speed so they’re willing to risk other people’s lives to avoid a bit of pain; and the occasional fast-charging wannabe racer. All three groups are problems–all three groups have passed me and others on blind corners. If one group can be eliminated then all the better. If electric motorcycles are limited to not having enough power to pass dangerously like this (uphill at high speed), then it’s a step in the right direction. But my observation is that no such limits are enforced.

Part of the problem is that while society thinks that it is worth enforcing laws on the public roads, for some reason there is no law enforcement on the public paths, and in fact may not even be any laws. For instance, is it against any law for a cyclist to swerve around a downed-tree into the other lane and into the path of an oncoming bicyclist? Someone did exactly that to my friend, who broke his pelvis as a result. On the road, there would have been a police presence and charges for a traffic violation. On the path, the idiot who swerved into my friend just hangs around for a few minutes (at least he did that!) and then rides away with no consequence.

Nick

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