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The words you quoted are not the only words involved. But again, I’m not interested in this discussion. Nor do I accept anyone speaking for me or putting thoughts in my head or telling me how I read words. You cannot read my mind. I only speak for myself. Reasonable people can disagree. We all apparently agree about everything important, so there’s no point in belaboring how we got there. Let’s move on.

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@dasgeh 161181 wrote:

NO ONE IS DOING THIS. And yet, you continue to claim someone is. Why?

I am not interested in a long discussion about why you read words one way and I read them another, etc. That would take all day and probably get nowhere anyway.

If you think nobody said that, then great. Everyone here agrees that yelling at women is often, but not always, sexism. We’re finished.

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@lordofthemark 161174 wrote:

I assume that at least 15% of the time, conscious irony DOES work on the internet.

Overt and repeated stating of exactly what you mean doesn’t even seem to work sometimes, so I can’t do conscious irony now.

I think the most enlightening thing about discussions like this is how even when we devote so many words to it, somehow we seem to have massive misunderstandings. I see people reading the exact opposite of what I’m saying, and seeing the exact opposite of what I read in other people’s words. It’s like we speak different languages. I think that’s a big part of the problem, the communication. And when we try to fix it by talking more, sometimes that works but sometimes it just leads to frustration and anger. And I can’t help noticing that it’s similar to what happens in personal relationships sometimes too.

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@Amalitza 161175 wrote:

Absolutely no one claims that every individual instance ever of a man behaving aggressively or condescendingly to a woman is motivated specifically by sexism. That is a straw man.

That was my perception of some of the claims made.

And since we can’t read minds, if we are only allowed to discuss sexist behavior if we have absolute proof of the specific motivation of every individual action, that means that we are never allowed to discuss sexist behavior.

That’s a straw man.

Yes, you can’t read minds. Exactly. It is unfair to accuse someone of something without evidence.

That doesn’t mean you can’t discuss sexism. Just that you can’t accuse someone of sexism just because they yelled at you. That would be claiming the right to do what you described above – assuming every instance is motivated by sexism – even if you don’t do that.

When discussions like this come up and multiple men chime in to say “but, but, but, not every single instance of X is sexist so you can’t claim sexism!!” (which pretty much ALWAYS happens) you’re essentially just telling us to go sit down and shut up.

NO. NOT AT ALL.

Sure, most men will admit that there’s sexism in the world, and sure, most will agree that — in theory– it would be good if there’s less sexism in the world, but hey first let’s make sure we understand what’s really important, which is that no man, ever, for any reason, should be unfairly accused of sexism.

Well, yes, men who think sexism is a really really bad thing are going to be more concerned about false accusations of sexism. Don’t you see how that’s a good thing? It means they think being sexist is a horrible thing.

This is a false dilemma. We don’t have to choose between speaking out against sexism and avoiding false accusations. In fact, I think it is important to do both, for credibility’s sake. There is absolutely no implication that it is more important to avoid false accusations than to speak out against sexism.

Yes, some cyclists are reckless scofflaws. But don’t y’all get tired of having that pointed out repeatedly over and over Every.Single.Time there is a discussion somewhere about car/bike safety and society’s overall attitude towards cycling? Yes, sometimes men get unfairly accused of sexism, and no not all men are sexist, and women already know thisit absolutely necessary for you to point that out to us over and over again Every.Single.Time there is a discussion about sexism and society’s overall attitude towards women?

I don’t point it out every single time. I don’t ever point it out unless I see someone who doesn’t seem to already know it, which I saw here. If you think I saw something that wasn’t there, fine.

I’m glad we all agree though. Now we can move on.

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@lordofthemark 161172 wrote:

I assume that of all occasions when a man yells at a woman, 14% of the time it is conscious sexism, 53% of the time it is unconscious sexism, 20% of the time it is equal opportunity jerkitude, 10% of the time it is justified yelling, and the remaining 3% fall into “all other” (including involuntary yelling, internalized antiveloism, selfhatred by the gender questioning, and of course, antisemitism. )

Cool. That’s all I’m saying (except I don’t assume percentages).

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@dasgeh 161169 wrote:

Where is all yelling labeled as sexism?

If you agree that not all yelling at women is automatically sexism, great. We agree on everything.

Let’s not have a long conversation about how someone said this but didn’t mean that and you overreacted, no, you misunderstood. I do that enough with my wife. Besides, I already said I’m moving on.

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@dasgeh 161167 wrote:

Remember those stereographic images that were all the rage in the 1990s? Do you remember when you first saw one and were like “what’s the big deal – it’s just a bunch of fuzz”. And then your brothers were like “no, it’s really cool, try this trick to see it”. And that didn’t work. Then your friend showed you a trick, and that didn’t work. Then your dad showed you a trick, and you saw it. And when you saw it, you were all like “whoa! that’s cool” and told all your friends who were still seeing fuzz about the trick that worked for you.

That’s how I see these conversations. There’s something happening, and some people just don’t see it. That’s fine. But those of us that do see it keep trying to give those that don’t see it tricks to bring it into focus. And I’m hopeful that each one of these conversations helps a few more people see it. But some people still don’t see it. That’s fine.

But when people start railing away that there’s nothing there to see, it’s really frustrating.

I hope you’re not implying that I am saying there is nothing to see, because I’m not. I’ve even made that explicit, more than once. And if you think that, then that just shows that you’re the one who doesn’t see what I’m saying. I feel the same way you do. I don’t think my comments are even remotely controversial. If you start with the premise that you can’t possibly be the one who doesn’t understand and it must be that the other person is wrong, rather than a discussion in which people make themselves more clear to each other, we all get nowhere.

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@TwoWheelsDC 161164 wrote:

Here’s how I think of it, and it’s possible I’m off the mark…men basically have the luxury of thinking about equality of human interactions in terms of the *input* to a system. Those inputs are behavior, language, etc…so as long as all inputs are equal/genderless (e.g. a cyclist yelling at a bad passer who happens to be a woman) then the interaction is “equal.” However, that’s not really how it works. The equality of the system is about *outputs*, and our inputs are just one variable among many. So while input x may be “equal”, there’s like 50 other pieces of the equation (like, say, the patriarchy) that tend to make the output of that interaction unequal and hostile to women, i.e. sexist.

TL;DR It’s not about “assuming jerks are sexist,” but rather recognizing that even not-overtly-sexist behavior can create sexist interactions. So yeah, don’t shout at women.

That’s a good explanation of why this discussion is happening, but it doesn’t justify labeling all yelling as sexism in my mind. To me, sexism is a motivation (conscious or not). To be accused of sexism is a bad thing that makes your actions different, and worse than just yelling. I don’t think it’s fair, or productive, to assume that any time a man yells at a woman it’s because he’s a sexist. That’s ironically sexist against men. It doesn’t help the cause.

Yes, it’s unfair that women get yelled at more because some men only yell at women. But I think lumping all actions into one motivation makes it harder to deal with them, note easier.

So to avoid going through a long discussion about this, I’ll just state my personal policies here and move on:

– I don’t yell at women.
– I don’t yell at men.
– I try to notice when I might be accidentally creeping out a woman by following her too long or whatever and avoid it.
– I look out for situations where women might need my help, such as in the dark or in a sketchy place.
– I look out for situations where men might need my help too.
– I offer help with mechanical issues when I think it might be needed to women, and try to actively signal that it’s not just because they are female (“got the tools you need?”)
– I offer help with mechanical issues to men too when I think it might be needed.
– I don’t ever assume I know what a woman or man has experienced in life.
– I don’t ever assume that I know what a woman or man is thinking, feels, believes or is motivated by. Every person deserves to be treated as an individual and to speak for themselves and not be judged by what others say or do. I ask others to do the same for me. (That, of course, is not just about cycling).

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As noted, calling passes for pedestrians is a different issue. I can definitely see a situation where I might not call a pass to a pedestrian, especially one with a dog, so that I avoid the pedestrian suddenly jumping or turning and causing the dog’s leash to get in the way. In DC, where there are many tourists walking, we often see them overreact when you call a pass and make things even worse. Some even move to your left to get out of way.

A smart cyclist (me) calls a pass in that situation well in advance and/or uses a bell. But sometimes it’s better to just get past while you can and not risk them freaking out.

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@lordofthemark 161158 wrote:

And even if you could, that alone would not help. As I think the next part of your statement implies, there are drivers who are jerks toward bikes, and less (or not at all) towards other motor vehicles, WITHOUT conscious antiveloism. But there is subconscious antiveloism, which becomes part of the structural antiveloism of our society. And which is an important part of why we have fewer people on bikes than we might. Which makes it legitimate to just say “Drivers, do not be jerks towards cyclists” One doesn’t have to modify it to “Don’t be jerks towards anyone” because the problem being addressed is structural antiveloism, and there is no harm done in sweeping in the actual equal opportunity jerks (one presumes telling them to not be jerks towards cyclists will not cause them to be more jerky towards motor vehicles or pedestrians).

I think that logic applies equally well to gender. Except skins are thinner among some males, than among drivers in general. I suppose the occasional recreational bike ride most drivers have done helps with that

I don’t think my comment implies that at all.

There are jerks who openly hate women (or bikes) – lots of them. There are jerks who subconsciously do but don’t realize it. And there are jerks who hate everyone. And we can’t know which is which – unless, of course, we have some kind of connection to their behavior such as yelling something specific to women, or bikes, of course.

My comment doesn’t in any way deny that women, like bikes, are disproportionately targeted, or are specifically targeted due to their sex either. Just that we can’t judge a specific behavior by a specific person on nothing but the actions of others.

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@Tania 161156 wrote:

^^^ just because YOU don’t do this or haven’t personally witnessed it doesn’t mean women don’t have to deal with it almost daily.

Of course not! I didn’t even remotely suggest they don’t. I acknowledged, more than once, that they do.

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@dasgeh 161153 wrote:

You’re missing the point. So let’s try it from another angle:
There are bikes out there on the road. There are some drivers who don’t like bikes on the road, and drive aggressively. Sometimes it is overt — honking and close passes, yelling, etc. Sometimes it is less obvious (see BobCo’s W&OD crosswalk video from today). Sometimes it may not even be front of mind, but just drivers who have been brought up in a society that tries to push cyclists to the farthest right side of the road possible. So even when you’re on the 3-lanes-eastbound part of Lee Hwy, and the only people on the road are you and one car, that driver passes you IN THE SAME LANE, seemingly not even knowing that they’re being a complete a$$hat.

As a driver, don’t do that. Whether you’re thinking “UGH I HATE CYCLISTS” or you just want to go a little faster, don’t pass within 3 feet. Period.

I didn’t miss the point. You did.

If that jerk driver cuts off motorists and buzzes pedestrians, not just cyclists, his behavior is not motivated not by a hatred for cyclists, but just because he’s a asshat. One can’t know for sure because you cannot read someone else’s mind and you haven’t followed him around to see how he behaves. That’s not fair.

Women have a serious problem with sexism on bikes and otherwise. No question. But assuming jerk behavior is sexist when it’s just jerkism doesn’t help solve that problem, it just distracts from it, as we’ve seen. I think there are plenty of good examples of obvious sexism to focus on without insisting that every single occurrence of jerkism that targets a woman is rooted in sexism.

Whether you’re thinking “UGH I HATE CYCLISTS” or you just want to go a little faster, don’t pass within 3 feet. Period.

Exactly. And as a cyclist, whether you are a sexist pig or just a pig to everyone, don’t yell. Same principle. That doesn’t change the fact that women are targeted more often and face more threats. That’s something we should all be aware of and work to fix.

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@Emm 161091 wrote:

This isn’t just something to do for women, do it for everyone so you’re not a jerk.

Here’s an example of how someone’s behavior can simply be jerky and not necessarily sexist jerky. Of course, the problem for a woman, though, is she can’t tell which it is and what might happen next.

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@Tania 160870 wrote:

http://www.waba.org/blog/2017/05/guys-what-the-hell/

I heart WABA so much.

And to all the guys who want to say “hey! that’s not sexism,” I say in return “piss off.”

Nobody said it is never sexist to yell at women, just that it is possible someone is yelling at a woman for another reason. If he also yells the same things at men….

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@AT_Hiker59 161143 wrote:

I don’t live in the area but visit family who do frequently. Many times this spring I have been on the Sligo Trail. I have noticed only 7 bikers calling out their passes. Bikers who do not call out their passes whizzing close by me are too numerous. I am not used to bikers not calling out. Is this a DC area norm? Sligo Trail is too narrow to be speeding by. Is there any educating bikers to sensible courteous trail usage?

One biker gave me the finger when I called out “hey”. Boy did he change his tune when I and my daughter’s pit bull caught up to him at Colesville Rd. red light.

Having ridden a bike in this area for nearly 30 years, it’s my observation that cyclists used to call their passes about 70-80% of the time and now it’s only about 40-50%. I think it’s the explosion in the popularity of cycling and noobs who either don’t know or don’t care about calling passes, along with some who are just too cool to do it (including more than a few kitted-out roadies flying by).

I don’t mind if the call wasn’t really necessary, but when someone passes me and I really could have used the warning, my response is often “on my left!”

(I didn’t read your comment as you threatening someone with the dog, but I see how others could.)

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