YAA (yet another accident) at Lynn?

[eminva]

@pfunkallstar 33508 wrote:

Seriously just put in a freaking ski lift starting from the crossing up Rosslyn Hill and charge a nickle for each axle.

I like this outside of the box thinking!

Liz

[Tim Kelley]

@eminva 33543 wrote:

I like this outside of the box thinking!

Liz

It’s been posted before, but: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j1PgmMbug8

[eminva]

@Tim Kelley 33546 wrote:

It’s been posted before, but: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j1PgmMbug8

Thanks! I’ll have to forward that to my mother; she used to live in Trondheim!

This might inspire more people to actually try the Rosslyn hill. Hard to guage steepness from the video, but it looked comparable. The downside would be that we have to share space with pedestrians (and a lot of them) there, among other obstacles.

Liz

[dasgeh]

I’ve posted about this before, but the timing of the pedestrian signals at this intersection, which Arlington thinks is AOK, is dangerous. I ran into Wayne Wentz at a meeting and he wouldn’t even listen to me about it. I believe he said “I talk to Tim Kelley every day, and I’ve never heard about this problem. So it must not be a real problem.” So, Tim, if you could mention it to him…

Anyway, I have two concrete issues with the pedestrian lights:

1) There’s a period in the light cycle when cars heading North (along Lynn) have a green light and peds heading North/South (also along Lynn) have the hand (cars and peds heading West (onto Lee) have red). This is silly because cars can’t turn right from Lynn onto the ramp (the ramp being one-way). So peds are stopped for no reason at all.

2) There’s a similar period in the light cycle when cars heading West (along Lee) have a green light and peds heading East/West (also along Lee/ramp) have the hand (cars and peds heading North/South along Lynn have red). This is dangerous because it’s not the normal course — usually if cars have a green circle (as opposed to a green arrow), peds have the hand. I see lots of peds/cyclists come upto this intersection and think the ped signal must be broken, then go through. *If cars had a green arrow here, or if there were at least a sign for peds, I don’t think there would be as much of a problem.

Now on to the question of whether bikes should start a cross on the countdown: I’m all for waiting for safety, but the way the timing works now, there are often so many peds/cyclists waiting at that intersection, that just by waiting in line you end up starting a cross during the countdown. Also, coming from the West, a cyclist is often stopped at Fort Myer, only to get to Lynn at 10 in the countdown. That’s plenty of time to get across Lynn, and waiting would add literally a full two minutes (a minute at Fort Myer and another at Lynn) to the ride. That’s insane.

I always make eye contact, and when windows are down, I often make noise to get cars attention.

Until we can get a better solution, I sincerely think this intersection needs “no turn on red” and a dedicated green arrow, at least during rush hours.

[Tim Kelley]

@dasgeh 33550 wrote:

I ran into Wayne Wentz at a meeting and he wouldn’t even listen to me about it. I believe he said “I talk to Tim Kelley every day, and I’ve never heard about this problem. So it must not be a real problem.” So, Tim, if you could mention it to him…

Wayne is a pretty busy guy–I usually talk to some of the other engineers about signals and timing. I’ll see if it can get run up the ladder a bit.

[baiskeli]

@dasgeh 33550 wrote:

I’ve posted about this before, but the timing of the pedestrian signals at this intersection, which Arlington thinks is AOK, is dangerous. I ran into Wayne Wentz at a meeting and he wouldn’t even listen to me about it. I believe he said “I talk to Tim Kelley every day, and I’ve never heard about this problem. So it must not be a real problem.” So, Tim, if you could mention it to him…

Anyway, I have two concrete issues with the pedestrian lights:

1) There’s a period in the light cycle when cars heading North (along Lynn) have a green light and peds heading North/South (also along Lynn) have the hand (cars and peds heading West (onto Lee) have red). This is silly because cars can’t turn right from Lynn onto the ramp (the ramp being one-way). So peds are stopped for no reason at all.

2) There’s a similar period in the light cycle when cars heading West (along Lee) have a green light and peds heading East/West (also along Lee/ramp) have the hand (cars and peds heading North/South along Lynn have red). This is dangerous because it’s not the normal course — usually if cars have a green circle (as opposed to a green arrow), peds have the hand. I see lots of peds/cyclists come upto this intersection and think the ped signal must be broken, then go through. *If cars had a green arrow here, or if there were at least a sign for peds, I don’t think there would be as much of a problem.

I agree completely. The timing is a problem there, big time (so to speak).

Now on to the question of whether bikes should start a cross on the countdown: I’m all for waiting for safety, but the way the timing works now, there are often so many peds/cyclists waiting at that intersection, that just by waiting in line you end up starting a cross during the countdown.

Well, no, you stop and wait for the next one, if you’re sticking to the green. But I’ve rarely had that problem.

Also, coming from the West, a cyclist is often stopped at Fort Myer, only to get to Lynn at 10 in the countdown. That’s plenty of time to get across Lynn, and waiting would add literally a full two minutes (a minute at Fort Myer and another at Lynn) to the ride. That’s insane.

Why?

Just stop and wait.

I know it goes against every urge in every muscle of our bodies to not GO GO GO, but that’s what safety requires sometimes. It’s not that hard to do. My system isn’t perfect, but it takes 2 minutes and adds a very comfortable margin of safety in return. It’s worth my 2 minutes.

It’s also actually following the letter of the law.

Until we can get a better solution, I sincerely think this intersection needs “no turn on red” and a dedicated green arrow, at least during rush hours.

Yep.

[dasgeh]

Do you know the cite for the law? I just see this: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-925, which says this:

§ 46.2-925. Pedestrian control signals.

Whenever pedestrian control signals exhibiting the words, numbers, or symbols meaning “Walk” or “Don’t Walk” are in place such signals shall indicate and apply to pedestrians as follows:

Walk. – Pedestrians facing such signal may proceed across the highway in the direction of the signal and shall be given the right-of-way by the drivers of all vehicles.

Don’t Walk. – No pedestrian shall start to cross the highway in the direction of such signal, but any pedestrian who has partially completed his crossing on the Walk signal shall proceed to a sidewalk or safety island and remain there while the Don’t Walk signal is showing.

[baiskeli]

@dasgeh 33555 wrote:

Do you know the cite for the law? I just see this: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-925, which says this:

§ 46.2-925. Pedestrian control signals.

Whenever pedestrian control signals exhibiting the words, numbers, or symbols meaning “Walk” or “Don’t Walk” are in place such signals shall indicate and apply to pedestrians as follows:

Walk. – Pedestrians facing such signal may proceed across the highway in the direction of the signal and shall be given the right-of-way by the drivers of all vehicles.

Don’t Walk. – No pedestrian shall start to cross the highway in the direction of such signal, but any pedestrian who has partially completed his crossing on the Walk signal shall proceed to a sidewalk or safety island and remain there while the Don’t Walk signal is showing.

That’s it.

When the countdown begins, it’s on Don’t Walk. The countdown tells pedestrians who have already begun their crossing how much time they have to get across.

Cyclists, since they move fast, use this as a timer to tell them how much time they have to BEGIN crossing and then cross, as do many pedestrians. (I do it too, of course, just not at that intersection.) I have seen some ped lights that start the countdown in the green, but this one is red from the start.

So this, [IMG]http://www.co.dakota.mn.us/NR/rdonlyres/092E8953-D890-4BDC-B777-AE7847A3DE0B/11178/Countdown.JPG[/IMG]

for instance, means: “Already crossing? You have 4 seconds to get your ass to the other side. Haven’t started crossing yet? Don’t!” That’s not quite the exact legal language though.

I’m more worried about safety than legalities, but I think the two line up well at that intersection.

[dasgeh]

If that’s all, then there are periods of time during the countdown when there is no “Don’t Walk” signal on the screen. In other words, the hand goes away. The number is not a “Don’t Walk” signal. So as long as I start crossing while the sign is “off”, then I’m not breaking the law.

I know it won’t be a popular, but letter of the law doesn’t fit this situation. Unless there’s another statute out there…

[baiskeli]

@dasgeh 33559 wrote:

If that’s all, then there are periods of time during the countdown when there is no “Don’t Walk” signal on the screen. In other words, the hand goes away. The number is not a “Don’t Walk” signal. So as long as I start crossing while the sign is “off”, then I’m not breaking the law.

I can’t remember what it looks like now. I know the light is red from the start of the count, but I can’t remember what the hand is doing. I’ll look next time.

Not that a few seconds at the start of that cycle matter anyway. But stop one time at the green and watch everyone else crossing. It’s a desperate scrum sometimes. Bikes are trying to cross, cars are trying to go right on red, or green, from an awkward angle, bikes are trying to avoid each other and pedestrians/bikes waiting to cross the other way, bikes are turning onto the sidewalk to get to the bridge….

Try waiting for the green and see what it’s like. It’s serene. It’s like that moment when you finally get all your kids on the school buses and you can just sail through the morning.

[ShawnoftheDread]

Whether you think peds and bikes should wait for the next green or not, the fact is that it’s ridiculous to have only 15 seconds of “walk” and 30-45 seconds of “don’t walk” at an intersection that takes only 5-10 seconds to cross. The walk signal should be longer and the don’t walk should be much shorter for each cycle.

[baiskeli]

@ShawnoftheDread 33561 wrote:

Whether you think peds and bikes should wait for the next green or not, the fact is that it’s ridiculous to have only 15 seconds of “walk” and 30-45 seconds of “don’t walk” at an intersection that takes only 5-10 seconds to cross. The walk signal should be longer and the don’t walk should be much shorter for each cycle.

Well, maybe the walk should be longer, but you don’t want the don’t walk to be shorter – that’s a safety countdown for pedestrians and cyclists. But if it only take 5-10 seconds to cross, 15 seconds should be enough.

[jabberwocky]

The issue with the “walk”/”don’t start but finish walking” ratio is that its usually timed to the lowest common denominator. So the time given to finish walking is, like, for little old ladies with walkers or something. Even riding across super leisurely I find I can cross in 1/3 the time they give you. If theres 20 seconds on the timer for an intersection that takes 5 seconds to ride across at a slow pace, I’m definitely gonna go.

[ShawnoftheDread]

@baiskeli 33562 wrote:

Well, maybe the walk should be longer, but you don’t want the don’t walk to be shorter – that’s a safety countdown for pedestrians and cyclists. But if it only take 5-10 seconds to cross, 15 seconds should be enough.

15 seconds should be enough for what, for the “walk” signal? Sure, for those standing on the corner at the beginning of the cycle. But the point people are trying to make is that the signal should accomodate more than just those already waiting to cross when the cycle begins. Just like green lights are usually long enough to accomodate more than just the cars that were sitting at the red light. I would apply your “15 seconds should be enough” to the “don’t walk” cycle, not to the “walk” cycle.

[baiskeli]

@jabberwocky 33565 wrote:

The issue with the “walk”/”don’t start but finish walking” ratio is that its usually timed to the lowest common denominator. So the time given to finish walking is, like, for little old ladies with walkers or something. Even riding across super leisurely I find I can cross in 1/3 the time they give you. If theres 20 seconds on the timer for an intersection that takes 5 seconds to ride across at a slow pace, I’m definitely gonna go.

Sure. Me too, at most intersections.

[Author]

Posts