Women & Negative Interaction on the Trails

[baiskeli]

@mstone 138201 wrote:

I think there’s a bit of a selection problem here; I don’t have a whole lot to stand up to, because the people I’m generally with wouldn’t engage in such behavior. I’m not claiming it doesn’t happen, but I don’t see it happening near me. I’m not sure how to effect change in a group you’re not part of.

My feelings too. OF COURSE I would stand up against such behavior if I saw it. The fault is with the creeps, not their victims and not anyone else who doesn’t have an opportunity to stop it.

[baiskeli]

@LaurelHillRider 138163 wrote:

You can help by shutting this shit down if you see a buddy or someone else do it. Even without escalating into violence, these pervasive aggressions add up over time and make women restrict their movement and activities. It sucks. Thanks for doing what you can to shut it down and make it as socially unacceptable as it should be.

The problem is that to shut it down, a guy must be there. And if a guy is there, the creep probably won’t do it in the first place. Maybe we need to do sting operations with video like some people are doing these days.

[dkel]

@baiskeli 138282 wrote:

The problem is that to shut it down, a guy must be there. And if a guy is there, the creep probably won’t do it in the first place.

In the case of catcalling and other sexually inappropriate behavior, this is true for most of us highly educated, professional types on this forum. There are plenty of other places where men engage in this type of behavior in groups, though. Getting back to something @dasgeh said earlier in the thread, other types of sexist remarks and behaviors still happen all too frequently in professional environments; it is often difficult for men even to notice those types of behaviors when they are going on, because, frankly, everyone has been culturally steeped in it. Often it is quite subtle as well.

It’s worth noting that the reverse is true, depending on the situation. When I used to drop my kids off at preschool, I would sometimes get invited to an event with “the other moms.” Being a dad, this struck me as somewhat exclusive, but I also had the male cultural advantage of being able to shrug it off; I don’t think women have the cultural empowerment to treat such things so lightly day-to-day.

[baiskeli]

@dkel 138289 wrote:

In the case of catcalling and other sexually inappropriate behavior, this is true for most of us highly educated, professional types on this forum. There are plenty of other places where men engage in this type of behavior in groups, though. Getting back to something @dasgeh said earlier in the thread, other types of sexist remarks and behaviors still happen all too frequently in professional environments; it is often difficult for men even to notice those types of behaviors when they are going on, because, frankly, everyone has been culturally steeped in it. Often it is quite subtle as well.

That’s fair. Sometimes we understand those things differently and what may sound like really really subtle sexism may not even be sexism. But yes, we must all try to overcome “cultural steeping.” I think we should also avoid assuming that others are culturally steeped in the first place too. It can be a cheat – a way of saying someone’s view is irrelevant because they are somehow unable to perceive something.

It’s worth noting that the reverse is true, depending on the situation. When I used to drop my kids off at preschool, I would sometimes get invited to an event with “the other moms.” Being a dad, this struck me as somewhat exclusive, but I also had the male cultural advantage of being able to shrug it off; I don’t think women have the cultural empowerment to treat such things so lightly day-to-day.

I don’t think you should shrug it off. I think it’s fair to call out sexism against men too. In fact, that’s a good example because it perpetuates the idea that men aren’t, or shouldn’t, be involved in caring for children.

[SolarBikeCar]

The sexist hurtle for men is the cultural assumption that most guys are closet pedophiles who would offend if only given the chance. Women might leave their child for a few moments with a stranger if the stranger was a woman, but never a man.

A group of new parents in our community decided on a neighborhood parents night out where one couple would stay home and babysit while the rest had the night off. One initial stipulation, though, was that the wife would always be home and never let dads alone with the kids. I don’t know what the group would have done with a modern gay couple with children.

[dasgeh]

@SolarBikeCar 138403 wrote:

The sexist hurtle for men is the cultural assumption that most guys are closet pedophiles who would offend if only given the chance. Women might leave their child for a few moments with a stranger if the stranger was a woman, but never a man.

A group of new parents in our community decided on a neighborhood parents night out where one couple would stay home and babysit while the rest had the night off. One initial stipulation, though, was that the wife would always be home and never let dads alone with the kids. I don’t know what the group would have done with a modern gay couple with children.

I’m sure this exists, and it may be a problem for some, but, as a mother with a stay-at-home dad for a partner, I can confidently say it doesn’t rise to the level of the constant threat of male violence that women face moving through this world.

[Subby]

@SolarBikeCar 138403 wrote:

The sexist hurtle for men is the cultural assumption that most guys are closet pedophiles who would offend if only given the chance. Women might leave their child for a few moments with a stranger if the stranger was a woman, but never a man.

The struggle!

[baiskeli]

Pointing out sexism against men doesn’t mean you think sexism against men is just as damaging or prevalent as sexism against women. It’s just a commentary on the idea that men should call out other men on sexism. If so, women should call out other women too, such as when they view a man caring for children with skepticism or leave him out by referring just to “moms.”

[TwoWheelsDC]

I would say that “sexism” against men (which I define as social pressure on men to conform to traditional gender roles) is a second-order effect of misogyny, so it’s damage is a bit more muted and indirect. But you can’t solve the former without first solving the latter, so misogyny is really the core problem to focus on. But I think demonstrating how misogyny can have negative effects on men is one way to make the problem relevant to men who might not otherwise feel compelled to do anything about it.

[jabberwocky]

Its nicely illustrative of the core problem that a thread about the crap women deal with (sometimes on a daily basis) gets turned around to be about how hard men actually have it. :rolleyes:

[peterw_diy]

Don’t forget, this forum has an Ignore option perfect for squelching trolls.

More reading on the awfulness of men, from Chicago: http://www.chicagonow.com/cta-tattler/2016/04/sexual-harassment-on-the-cta-widespread-problem-hits-home/

[wheelswings]

I’ve been following this thread with curiosity. I ride the trails (and roads) almost every day and have rarely experienced the bad behavior described in some of the prior posts.

The initial incident that triggered this thread – a girlfriend being followed – is indeed serious and deserving of police notification. It is the potential for such incidents (and worse) that has led me to carry mace and a shriek alarm. I ride the trails (including the less popular ones) at all hours including late at night. Like others, I am afraid of the deranged psychotic people I have never met.

But in terms of everyday interactions, I don’t feel the male-chauvinism or harassment that some have described. Such biases are still entrenched in many workplaces, in the legal system, and in other venues, but I’ve hardly experienced them on my bicycle.

Maybe I am just lucky. Or oblivious – after all, I honestly don’t care what others think of my riding –they’re welcome to bicycle commute “better” than me if they wish. Or maybe small stick-figures like me don’t get the same attention as people with fuller builds. The literature is replete with articles about the social acceptability of teasing larger people. That is very sad, and I think it affects both genders.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-jonny-bowden/obesity-bias_b_1947085.html

I’ve been trying to think of instances where my gender has come into play on the trails. I can remember two times in the last decade when I’ve been drafted inexplicably for large distances by guys on road bikes (I ride a heavy old mountain bike…not fast) and I thought to myself, this is just plain weird. Sometimes I get mocked for the elaborate warnings I give when I’m passing. But I don’t see this as gender-related… and I honestly don’t care, because safety is tantamount. There are definitely ill-behaved people on the trails, but I write them off as stupid rather than somehow prejudiced against my gender.

What concerns me most, of course, is coming home alive. And unfortunately I would say I’ve had at least as many (or more) scary experiences with aggressive women drivers as with men.

I sense that some kind, thoughtful male riders hesitate to interact with females on the trails or roads, not wanting to scare us. I hope this thread does not increase the silence. Many female (and male) riders do indeed appreciate friendly greetings from fellow riders of either gender. I think it’s a nice way to build community on the trails.

[Judd]

Having never been passed on a trail by Wheels & Wings, I’m now super curious what Cynthia’s elaborate warnings when passing are.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Steve O]

@Judd 138495 wrote:

Having never been passed on a trail by Wheels & Wings, I’m now super curious what Cynthia’s elaborate warnings when passing are.

They go something like this:
“Hi, it’s just me. I’m approaching you from behind and there’s nothing to worry about, because I will give you plenty of space and go by you on your left side. I’m saying this in a cheerful voice because I love riding my bike, and I hope you are having a terrific day, too. Thanks for keeping a straight line and not stepping into my path. Hope to see you again soon. Cheerio!”

[baiskeli]

@TwoWheelsDC 138459 wrote:

I would say that “sexism” against men (which I define as social pressure on men to conform to traditional gender roles) is a second-order effect of misogyny, so it’s damage is a bit more muted and indirect. But you can’t solve the former without first solving the latter, so misogyny is really the core problem to focus on. But I think demonstrating how misogyny can have negative effects on men is one way to make the problem relevant to men who might not otherwise feel compelled to do anything about it.

I’m talking about plain old sexism against men. It can be just as damaging, not that it really matters – it’s still wrong. Certainly women suffer more sexism overall, and of course we should solve both. But the harm goes both ways – in my example, pressure on men not to care for children hurts women by perpetuating the inverse (that women should take on the bulk of childcare). So yeah, it’s all one big cauldron of sexism stew in the grand scheme of things.

[Author]

Posts