Woman Hit by Cyclist on Four Mile Run

[vvill]

@GuyContinental 22380 wrote:

I was thinking about Strava in this context last night- if this guy did hit someone, does his public Strava record (down to the ride title) create a history of hooliganism? Worse, are you Will, now implicated as being the “one other” on the ride (doubtful after a side by side comparison)? Looking closely at my own ride profiles I can see my yields for peds (abnormal dips on downhills), road crossings (down to 4-5 mph or 0) and busy trail days (endless quick acceleration, quick braking and lower times). But I also see crazy data errors (55mph at Brandywine Castle) and overall some pretty fast travel (early in the morning). I like to think that I’m a safe and courteous rider but I’m not sure that my profile couldn’t be spun against me.

To this guy’s credit it looks like post Custis he was on streets (weird route- Cutsis to Bluemont connector trail to George Mason to 4MR, I’ve never even thought about going that way) and he was stopping at lights and crossings.

One plus of Strava is that you can give him some public guilt- rider to rider in his ride comments.

Strava does have the “flag segment as unsafe” option (this segment actually begins before the Lynn St intersection – there is another west-bound Custis segment that doesn’t include it), but I don’t know if I really want to get as involved as that even. I can’t be 100% sure it was the same person who flew by me, although regardless it does seem a bit much to be actually racing a personal TT on the length of the Custis. Obviously the guy is a strong rider, but does he need to be doing it on a MUP that is narrow, hilly, has limited sight lines and often drop-offs/barriers on both sides, for the sake of – a Strava KOM? But one reason I love the Custis: there’s so few stops. Part of me wonders if I’d do the same thing if I had the legs (the other part says “of course not”).

That’s an interesting point on having a record of how fast/safe you appear to be riding. I’m sure drivers would not want any such record. The “one other” on the ride is actually what led me to this ride data (I think a quick look shows I couldn’t have been by him very long – my average speed on the same segment was 14mph – 8mph slower).

[DaveK]

@GuyContinental 22380 wrote:

I was thinking about Strava in this context last night- if this guy did hit someone, does his public Strava record (down to the ride title) create a history of hooliganism?

This has happened before –

http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/crime/2012/06/witness-blames-pace-biker-charged-felony-manslaughter

http://storify.com/AlanThompson71/discovering-the-dark-side-of-strava

[JeffC]

I never even heard of Strava until this thread. The last few posts bring out the tension within the biking crowd between the commuters, slow rec users, and racing crowd. As a commuter, I want things uncluttered, I move at a good pace, faster than the occasional rec crowd but slower than the racing crowd who would shudder in horror at adding 30 grams of weight with a bell or heaven forbid a pannier.

I actually get offended by the racing crowd much more so than the slower rec users. I certainly don’t want to indict them all, that would be unfair, but I have seen some really obnoxious behaviour that endangers others.

Along the lines of making certain sections of trails bike only at certain heavy commute times, why not one Sunday a month devote a stretch of a trail to bike racing, maybe that would appease the racing crowd. Then the next Sunday make it walkers/joggers only. I think we need more restrictions like this even though overall it would still be a MUP.

[dasgeh]

@JeffC 22400 wrote:

Along the lines of making certain sections of trails bike only at certain heavy commute times, why not one Sunday a month devote a stretch of a trail to bike racing, maybe that would appease the racing crowd. Then the next Sunday make it walkers/joggers only. I think we need more restrictions like this even though overall it would still be a MUP.

Why not one Sunday a month make the streets bike-only? Ok, maybe not all streets, but lots of major cities do cycliovia. Arlington could certainly do it.

I would love to see the major MUPs be bike-only during commuting times, with enforcement similar to I66’s HOV (cops at the trail entrances, turning runners with dogs away)… but realistically, even if they post a rule on a sign, plenty of people will ignore it, and it would probably piss off a lot of people. On the other hand, some creative signage that makes it clear that there will be lots of bikes, especially during the rush hours, and that slower trail users are expected to stay right (and stay compact — short leashes for dogs, single file while being passed). You could do it in a friendly way and focus on safety. There will still be some jerks that ignore them, but I think overall it will win us some friends. (And explain things to tourists who don’t understand the concept of staying to the right).

[jabberwocky]

Making MUPs bike only (at rush hour or anytime) isn’t going to happen, nor should it IMO. Pedestrians have just as much a right to the trails as cyclists, and a great many people commute by foot too (especially in more urban environments).

After incidents like this theres always a bunch of hand-wringing about “what can be done”, but incidents like this are quite rare (especially fatal ones). Maybe some education about the rules of the trail, but I honestly doubt that the lady who was struck was ignorant of the rules (stay right except to pass has been the standard on roads for decades, and its not like its particularly illogical or arcane).

[Phil1580]

As an experienced runner who uses the trails in Arlington, I can tell you that I always prefer the bell to the verbal “on your left.” I hear it better and with more time.

Also, when you are gaining ground on a runner and there is another runner coming in the other direction, for the love of God, please stop passing up the middle at the exact moment the runners pass each other. There is no “middle lane.” Brake for a second or two and then go around the runner in your lane. This drives me crazy.

[Arlingtonrider]

. . . or the cyclist in your lane.

[KLizotte]

I find it a bit odd that peds are so adamant that we call/ring our passes on the designated MUPs (I’m thinking of the ones with stop signs, yellow lane markings, etc – not the “trail” around the Jefferson Memorial) since cyclists don’t expect or demand that drivers toot their horns when they are going to pass us. When we are on the road we automatically assume that others will be passing us at any time, that it is incumbent upon us to behave predictably and not to move to the left without looking first. Shouldn’t we expect the same behavior from peds? They are walking in a roadway (call it a park or trail but it is essentially a road) and when I’m walking along one I don’t much care if anyone calls or rings since I presume a cyclist can come by at any time and I’m not planning on making any unexpected moves without looking first.

A call or ring may be polite but what is a ped going to do differently presuming they are already on the right where they are supposed to be? Now calling or ringing is different if the ped(s) needs to move so the pass can be made, when kiddies/dogs are around, or the occasional hairy moment.

That said, I still ring and call my passes but it does seem a bit silly at times given that do we not expect people to signal their passes on a consistent basis in other venues/modes. And if calling/ringing is so important, then the peds should acknowledge that they’ve heard it each and every time – the conversation should be a two way street.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@KLizotte 22430 wrote:

I find it a bit odd that peds are so adamant that we call/ring our passes on the designated MUPs (I’m thinking of the ones with stop signs, yellow lane markings, etc – not the “trail” around the Jefferson Memorial) since cyclists don’t expect or demand that drivers toot their horns when they are going to pass us. When we are on the road we automatically assume that others will be passing us at any time, that it is incumbent upon us to behave predictably and not to move to the left without looking first. Shouldn’t we expect the same behavior from peds? They are walking in a roadway (call it a park or trail but it is essentially a road) and when I’m walking along one I don’t much care if anyone calls or rings since I presume a cyclist can come by at any time and I’m not planning on making any unexpected moves without looking first.

A call or ring may be polite but really what is a ped going to do differently presuming they are already all the way to the right where they are supposed to be? Now calling or ringing is different if the ped(s) needs to move so the pass can be made or when kiddies are around.

That said, I still ring and call my passes but it does seem a bit silly at times given that do we not expect people to signal their passes on a consistent basis in other venues/modes. And if calling/ringing is so important, then the peds should acknowledge that they’ve heard it each and every time.

+1 million

[jabberwocky]

Its because bikes make very little noise and can therefore be very surprising to peds when we fly by. Cars make enough noise that you can easily hear them coming when you’re on the road.

[KLizotte]

@jabberwocky 22432 wrote:

Its because bikes make very little noise and can therefore be very surprising to peds when we fly by. Cars make enough noise that you can easily hear them coming when you’re on the road.

I disagree. It’s convenient that they make noise but one shouldn’t rely on one’s hearing solely to stay safe. In cities, there is too much noise to correctly gauge whether cars are coming or are trying to pass and the electric cars are nearly silent. I also presume you always look in your mirror or behind you before moving to the left irrespective of sound. Also, given the number of peds using earbuds, most don’t care if we ring or call since they can’t hear us anyway.

I think ringing or calling should be reserved for unusual or emergency situations – just as we use horns in cars. We don’t go around tooting our horns every time we see a ped ready to cross the street, walking along a street, or when passing other cars. If I’m walking along a country road without a sidewalk, I don’t expect cars to toot at me, not even the electric cars.

[jabberwocky]

I’ve been road riding for many years and can’t remember ever being outright surprised by a car passing me. Cars make a lot of noise (engine and tire) when moving. Bikes on the other hand are damn near silent, and I’ve been surprised many, many times by riders on the trail.

And yeah, nobody should rely on noise (pedestrian, car, bike, etc) to determine whether its safe to change lanes or whatnot. Its a courtesy thing. I know quite a few runners who run on MUPs and they all seem to appreciate it when cyclists announce passes.

[KLizotte]

@jabberwocky 22435 wrote:

I’ve been road riding for many years and can’t remember ever being outright surprised by a car passing me. Cars make a lot of noise (engine and tire) when moving. Bikes on the other hand are damn near silent, and I’ve been surprised many, many times by riders on the trail.

And yeah, nobody should rely on noise (pedestrian, car, bike, etc) to determine whether its safe to change lanes or whatnot. Its a courtesy thing. I know quite a few runners who run on MUPs and they all seem to appreciate it when cyclists announce passes.

I understand it is a courtesy but I am largely reacting to all of the negative press/comments this week due to this woman’s death that place all safety responsibilities on the shoulders of cyclists and absolve all peds from taking responsibility for themselves and others on the trails. It is very frustrating.

[jabberwocky]

@KLizotte 22436 wrote:

I understand it is a courtesy but am largely reacting to all of the negative press/comments this week due to this woman’s death that seem to put all safety responsibilities on the shoulders of cyclists and absolve all peds from taking responsibility for themselves and others on the trails. It is very frustrating.

Well, I entirely agree with that.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@jabberwocky 22435 wrote:

Its a courtesy thing. I know quite a few runners who run on MUPs and they all seem to appreciate it when cyclists announce passes.

Is that because it actually enhances safety somehow, or do they appreciate it because that’s become a normal rule-of-the-road type of thing? If people are acting predictably (i.e. “under normal circumstances”) then a courtesy ding seems redundant. I will admit, however, that I never use the trails for anything other than cycling, so my view is skewed. I’m sincerely curious (as in, I’m not snarking and am really interested to hear people’s thoughts) to know exactly why runners appreciate the signal since, as KLizzotte points out, users should anticipate being passed at any time.

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