Woman Hit by Cyclist on Four Mile Run

[jabberwocky]

@jnva 22852 wrote:

You can disagree with my opinion all you want, it won’t change the fact that the woman was the victim here.

Just because she was the person killed doesn’t mean she wasn’t at fault.

Again, its tragic and all, but every report and news article I’ve seen clearly stated that the cyclist called their pass (both with a bell and actually calling out) and the lady moved into his path.

[jnva]

@jabberwocky 22854 wrote:

Just because she was the person killed doesn’t mean she wasn’t at fault.

Again, its tragic and all, but every report and news article I’ve seen clearly stated that the cyclist called their pass (both with a bell and actually calling out) and the lady moved into his path.

My opinion is that on a MUP, if a pedestrian is hit and killed by a cyclist, it’s not the pedestrians fault. Sorry if that is not the opinion of others on this forum but that’s how I feel. Calling a pass is great and all but you also need to be in control of your vehicle in case something jumps out in front of you, especially if it’s a person, and especially if you see that person ahead of you in time to make multiple calls and bell rings.

[jabberwocky]

@jnva 22857 wrote:

My opinion is that on a MUP, if a pedestrian is hit and killed by a cyclist, it’s not the pedestrians fault. Sorry if that is not the opinion of others on this forum but that’s how I feel. Calling a pass is great and all but you also need to be in control of your vehicle in case something jumps out in front of you, especially if it’s a person, and especially if you see that person ahead of you in time to make multiple calls and bell rings.

I’m sorry, but that is an utterly ridiculous position to take. Its impossible to comply with, unless you literally ride everywhere at a walking pace and never pass anyone. No matter your speed, stopping takes a non-zero amount of time, so there is always a point at which you won’t be able to stop if something surprises you. It has nothing to do with “not being in control of your vehicle”, and phrasing it as such is disingenuous IMO. We have rules on the trails for a reason.

[DismalScientist]

@jnva 22857 wrote:

My opinion is that on a MUP, if a pedestrian is hit and killed by a cyclist, it’s not the pedestrians fault. Sorry if that is not the opinion of others on this forum but that’s how I feel. Calling a pass is great and all but you also need to be in control of your vehicle in case something jumps out in front of you, especially if it’s a person, and especially if you see that person ahead of you in time to make multiple calls and bell rings.

So, is it your opinion that when the unleashed dog ran out of the bushes onto the trail to play with me (the owner was nearby watching this) and cut in front of me demonstrating his tighter turning radius than mine, that my crashing was my fault for not having adequate control of my bike? Sorry, but I can imagine scenarios where the bicyclist is barely moving at all and crashes happen. The blame cannot always be placed on the cyclist.

[creadinger]

@jnva 22857 wrote:

My opinion is that on a MUP, if a pedestrian is hit and killed by a cyclist, it’s not the pedestrians fault.

There it is… that’s all I wanted you to say. You were veiling it in your other responses above. You essentially believe that pedestrians don’t have any personal responsibility on a MUP and that everyone else is at fault in the event of an accident resulting in injury or death. You should not apologize for your opinion, although you’re right – I absolutely do not agree with it.

What about a situation where a pedestrian runs into another pedestrian resulting in injury? A jogger, especially someone my size could just as easily have knocked over the woman in this situation with the result being the same. Joggers gnerally don’t call passes do they? The only time I’ve ever seen that was in the movie Spanglish. I don’t run very often though.

[jnva]

Ok, you guys win. Kind of hard to type on this iPhone. You are putting words in my mouth and making it seem like I’m an idiot – so ok go ahead if it makes you feel better. Won’t change my opinion though.

Still I see cyclists do way more dangerous things than pedestrians on the mup. they have right of way. I have been yelled at and nearly hit while walking on the wod, this is where I am coming from…

[jabberwocky]

@jnva 22863 wrote:

Still I see cyclists do way more dangerous things than pedestrians on the mup. they have right of way. I have been yelled at and nearly hit while walking on the wod, this is where I am coming from…

I’ve said it before but I’m going to reiterate it: right of way does not mean “can do anything they want at any time and its everyone elses responsibility to get out of their way/avoid them”, which seems to be how you’re interpreting it. Pedestrians have right of way, but are still obligated to be predictable and obey the rules.

[DismalScientist]

@jnva 22863 wrote:

Still I see cyclists do way more dangerous things than pedestrians on the mup. they have right of way. I have been yelled at and nearly hit while walking on the wod, this is where I am coming from…

I agree with this. Well, I haven’t almost been hit. It’s just that this tragic accident doesn’t seem to have been the result of the standard bad cyclist behavior we have all seen.

[Mark Blacknell]

Those interested in this concept of strict liability wrt pedestrians (as advocated by JVNA) may be interested to see that this has been debated in many other countries (with different outcomes). http://www.bikehub.co.uk/news/bike-to-work/strict-liability-too-contentious-says-transport-minister/

[aflapr]

Nobody asked me, but…

…it’s hard to opine on these types of accidents because each time you pass a jogger/make eye contact with a driver at an intersection/get passed by another rider/etc, the circumstances will be different. In other words, if you’ve passed one pedestrian, you’ve passed one pedestrian…

I find how I analyze whether I will pass, should I bell/call out or both, etc, etc is influenced by the time I spent at sea. I find that the basic foundations of the nautical Nav Rules have good application to biking. Always maintain a proper lookout; maintain a safe speed based on prevailing conditions (weather, traffic, etc); action taken to avoid collisions should be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship; vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken; etc, etc.

Does this mean I’m perfect on the trails? By no means. Sometimes I misjudge and pass when I shouldn’t have, sometimes the call gets caught in my throat on a climb, and sometimes the other person just does something spectacularly crazy. All we can do is our best to try to share the trails and hope everyone else does the same.

Two more parting thoughts on the sea/biking parallel:
(1) A collision at sea will ruin your day.
(2) It’s not speed kills – it’s momentum destroys…

[brendan]

@jnva 22857 wrote:

My opinion is that on a MUP, if a pedestrian is hit and killed by a cyclist, it’s not the pedestrians fault. Sorry if that is not the opinion of others on this forum but that’s how I feel. Calling a pass is great and all but you also need to be in control of your vehicle in case something jumps out in front of you, especially if it’s a person, and especially if you see that person ahead of you in time to make multiple calls and bell rings.

Sometimes physics won’t agree with this. I can think of some scenarios where a cyclist is going a reasonable speed and something completely unpredictable happens that could not be avoided unless the cyclist simply didn’t cycle.

An example I’d mentioned before in the forum is the time a toddler ran out into my path from *behind* a much larger roller luggage bag parked on the right side of the trail with (presumably) the toddler’s parents standing next to the luggage. There’s *no way* I could have seen that child and the only reason tragedy did not happen is timing. I’d rang my bell, called my pass, slowed my bike and gone wide, having seen the adults. And I emergency stopped. But had the timing been different….

The same thing could happen with a bush or tree off the side of the path. Heck, an off-path toddler could sideswipe a cyclist. I dare say that’d be the cyclists’ fault in all circumstances.

Brendan

[KLizotte]

Much to my chagrin last night, I became the “unpredictable pedestrian” – a first for me. At about 10:30ish at night, I was walking near Piccadilly Circus in London (their Times Square clone) in a crowded area. I was standing on the side of a one-way street waiting for the blinking man pedestrian light. I looked to the right (recall they drive on the left here) and saw that no cars were coming and I thought it was clear to cross without waiting for the green light (yes, I was jaywalking). There was an old man to my right on crutches. He was looking straight ahead and I figured he was going to wait for the ped sign to cross given his inability to move quickly. So I stepped off the curb and took about a step across the street. Just then I looked right and saw a cyclist with a look of terror on his face screeching to a stop in order not to hit me. It was very, very close and he let loose a stream of expletives. I saw him aiming at me I just froze so don’t think peds will jump out of your way at the last half second.

I took full responsibility for my stupidity and apologized. It could have been a really ugly accident and I offer no excuses. It was a humbling moment. There was really nothing the cyclist could have done to avoid me, esp since he was riding in a street and couldn’t swerve out of the way. That is why I say some ped-cyclist accidents are the fault of peds.

All that said, I can only report that I truly did not see the cyclist at all and I surmise that the man to my right blocked my view of the cyclist (and vice versa). I also must admit that I was only thinking of cars at that moment and had forgotten to check for bikers. I do think that if there had been bike markings in the street I would have taken another look. The cyclist did have a low intensity “be-seen” light on his handlebars (not nearly as bright as my Exposure light), street clothing, a dark helmet, and no reflective clothes or striping that I recall but there are a lot of street lights in the area so he wasn’t ninja (though if I were him I’d certainly invest in more night appropriate clothing/equipment). My mistake was not realizing I didn’t have a 100% view of the street and assuming all was clear; I was also really only looking for bright car lights (remember that folks) and not thinking of looking for bike lights (bikes on the streets of London are a really new phenomenon – not at all prevalent when I lived here four years ago).

So yes, peds (including the ones who bike) can do stupid things and sometimes the view is blocked both ways. Be careful out there!

And for the record, I was completely sober and very familiar with the area; just impatient to get where I wanted to be.

[MCL1981]

@jnva 22857 wrote:

My opinion is that on a MUP, if a pedestrian is hit and killed by a cyclist, it’s not the pedestrians fault. Sorry if that is not the opinion of others on this forum but that’s how I feel. Calling a pass is great and all but you also need to be in control of your vehicle in case something jumps out in front of you, especially if it’s a person, and especially if you see that person ahead of you in time to make multiple calls and bell rings.

And your opinion is absurd, impossible, and irrational. Apparently your suggestion then is to simply stay home on the couch all day.

[jnva]

@MCL1981 22925 wrote:

And your opinion is absurd, impossible, and irrational. Apparently your suggestion then is to simply stay home on the couch all day.

But I do that every day. Wow lots of angry people on this forum, I seem to have hit a nerve. I hope your not this angry while riding on the trails because you might run into someone.

Of course accidents happen. How I have managed to avoid hitting anyone on the wod/custis for the past 20 years must be a miracle then, huh?

[5555624]

@jnva 22926 wrote:

Of course accidents happen.

This doesn’t agree with your earlier statement that, in your opinon, “that on a MUP, if a pedestrian is hit and killed by a cyclist, it’s not the pedestrians fault.”

You don’t have to be going fast to knock someone down. You could be riding as slow as you possibly can to maintain your balance and a pedestrian could move into your path at the last second. A healthy 25-year-old male? You both would probably walk away and he probably would not get knocked down. The toddler Brendan mentions? Could get knocked down and/or you could fall on them. An 80-year-old? You might knock them down. A simple fall for someone that age can result in a broken hip or worse. If the back of their head smacks the trail smacks the trail, it could be fatal.

Every situation is different and making “absolutes” like on a MUP it’s always the cyclist’s fault or on the road it’s always the driver’s fault are extreme and not realistic. We can do everything we can to minimize risks to ourselves and others, but sometimes accidents happen — it might be our fault, it might be paritally our fault, it might be someone else’s fault.

[Author]

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