Why Are DC Area Cyclists the RUDEST I Have Ever Seen ?

[Roscoe]

@jabberwocky 9982 wrote:

Anyone complaining about being held up on a road with a 25mph speed limit deserves a smack with a wet fish. Roads with 25mph speed limits are small, neighborhood roads. They are not, by and large, commuting arteries. You should absolutely expect slow traffic on them. If slow traffic bothers you, do not commute on small roads with low speed limits.

Who ever mentioned commuting. And unless you voluntarily drive 15 mph in a 25 zone as a rule…..wouldn’t you consider this post a bit hypocritical ? Or is discourtesy and inconveniencing other people acceptable so long as it doesn’t happen to YOU ?

How about someone that wastes your time in a check-out line while they play on their I-phone for several minutes ? How about if that happened to you on a VERY REGULAR BASIS ? Would you be annoyed by it or would you say that it’s cool for them to inconvenience you solely for their own pleasure because….you should expect check-out lines to be slow ? My guess is that you’d expect them to show you some courtesy – the SAME courtesy you show them.

Yup, that’s what I thought. You’d eventually take offense to rudeness and discourtesy from others that wastes your time at no gain to them except personal satisfaction. (And yes, AGAIN, I’m well aware of people trying to assert that these roads are safer when the whole lane is taken. The vast numer of solo riders or riders in file SAFELY not taking up the entire lane proves that WRONG.)

[jabberwocky]

I’m a fast driver, dood. But I sure as hell don’t expect to go fast on a road with a 25mph speed limit. Roads generally have low speed limits for a reason.

Whether you believe taking the lane increases safety or not, the right to do is enshrined in law (for a reason), its taught and encouraged by pretty much every cycling organization in the country (again, for a reason) and is even encouraged by state departments of transportation (as linked earlier in the thread, and again, for a reason). Cyclists by and large aren’t doing it to piss you off, they’re doing it because it increases their safety.

[Roscoe]

@jabberwocky 9988 wrote:

I’m a fast driver, dood. But I sure as hell don’t expect to go fast on a road with a 25mph speed limit. Roads generally have low speed limits for a reason.

Whether you believe taking the lane increases safety or not, the right to do is enshrined in law (for a reason), its taught and encouraged by pretty much every cycling organization in the country (again, for a reason) and is even encouraged by state departments of transportation (as linked earlier in the thread, and again, for a reason). Cyclists by and large aren’t doing it to piss you off, they’re doing it because it increases their safety.

Is it unreasonable to expect to go the speed limit, or to be able to pass cyclists while everyone exercises responsible caution ?

So maybe I have it all wrong, maybe I have been cycling improperly for quite a few years. Perhaps we should ALL take the center lane. ALWAYS. After all it makes us all safer and it’s the law, right ?

If that’s the case, why don’t we hear from more people (anyone, actually) advocating THAT ?

[jabberwocky]

@Roscoe 9990 wrote:

Is it unreasonable to expect to go the speed limit, or to be able to pass cyclists while everyone exercises responsible caution ?

To expect to go the speed limit? Legally, its a limit, not the minimum speed. So no, its not reasonable to expect to go the speed limit.

Be able to pass cyclists? Absolutely, if the road design and circumstances warrant it. I think where we disagree is expecting cyclists to facilitate passing at (potentially) their own expense. I don’t think thats reasonable. If a cyclist is riding within the laws, they are fulfilling their obligation. Its up to the motorist to pass safely. If they cannot, they should not attempt to pass.

@Roscoe 9990 wrote:

If that’s the case, why don’t we hear from more people (anyone, actually) advocating THAT ?

Google “vehicular cycling” and you will indeed find a lot of people advocating exactly that. EDIT: Vehicular cycling even has a Wikipedia page! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicular_cycling

I personally don’t take the lane at all times. You need to judge when its helpful from a safety standpoint and whatnot.

When I first started commuting back in 2005, I actually conducted an experiment. On a certain road (narrow, with moderate traffic volume) I started by riding as far right as absolutely possible. In the gutter, basically. Every day I’d move a little further out. I found there was definitely a sweet spot where you’d get the most passing room and respect from motorists, and it was when I was pretty far out (roughly 12″ left of where most cars right tires go, or maybe 35-40% across the lane). To the right of that I actually got less passing room on average, because cars would try and squeeze by when it wasn’t safe to do so (and would give me less room as a result). At a certain point, cars stop attempting to squeeze past when there isn’t room.

[Terpfan]

Going back to the original question, your answer Roscoe was when you noticed the correlation to the bad drivers. It’s a regional thing although I don’t find it as bad as NYC.

With that said, Rock Creek has always had cyclists on it and sometimes packs of cyclists. That’s nothing new and as a driver I much preferred them there rather than on say Connecticut Avenue or 16th Street, etc. And quite frankly, I have been behind people driving 15mph on that road.

My biggest pet peeve is so many folks don’t say ‘on your left’ or ring their bell when passing on MVT. I get that sometimes in the more remote parts you can hear the cyclist coming, but at other parts you can’t. So if you divert for a stick and didn’t hear the call then it’s a collision waiting to happen. The worst is when it’s happening around the hill turns. Alas some folks just don’t seem to care. I’m a big guy and the one day I accidentally hit them because they don’t call it out is not going to be a pretty sight for them or for me, but probably more so for them. Live and learn.

[Roscoe]

@jabberwocky 9991 wrote:

T I think where we disagree is expecting cyclists to facilitate passing at (potentially) their own expense.

And I think the reason we disagree is because it is PERFECTLY CLEAR that there is no “expense” of safety to cyclists on these roads by neither riding 2-abreast nor in the center of the lane. I say that not only from the experience of having logged hundreds of miles on these very roads but from having passed an innumerable number of cyclists who have NO problem showing motorists the courtesy of safely cycling while not taking up the entire lane.

I can’t quite tell if you’re trying to establish the strawman argument that I am somehow saying that it is never appropriate for a cyclist to not be on the right. When obviously that is not what I’m saying.

Have you ever seen these roads,though, or been on them ? It’s simply preposterous to think that accomplished riders on the weekend can actually certainly see and probably actually pass other riders safely who are riding on the right…..yet think that THEY need to be riding two abreast or in the center of the lane.

And not only that…..in my years of cycling and living here I have NEVER seen a solo cyclist anywhere but on the right. NEVER. So the odds are that many of these people choosing to go 2-abreast when they’re with a friend have ridden these very roads while solo…..and not felt that safety dictated they be anywhere even NEAR the center.

There’s just no other way to describe it but simply discourtesy, or these rude people seizing their opportunity to thumb their nose at motorists, and inconvenience others in the process. It’s either that or they are saying to themselves “I’ve (probably) ridden this road safely while solo…..and i (almost definitely) can actually see others safely riding on the right…..but i really need to NOW be ridign 2-abreast with my friend because of this sudden new safety concern that apparently applies to me and no others.” It’s just not possible. It’s rudeness and discourtesy, plain and simple.

[dasgeh]

@Roscoe 9920 wrote:

The result is simply that the riders riding 2-abreast frequently cause a large traffic backup because they have CHOSEN to do something inconvenient for the people they should be sharing the road with. I see it ALL THE TIME. And of course since all the riders solo or in file seem to be doing just fine, this is just another example of people CHOOSING to be selfish and rude. Seems pretty much standard in this part of the country.

In your example, why are the cyclists the rude ones? Why not the drivers who control a multi-ton vehicle without requisite skill and confidence?

It sounds like you define rudeness as anything that impedes your personal progress, regardless of the underlying reason for the action. That seems pretty rude in itself, and shows that you have a pretty inflated sense of self-importance.

Sometimes you get caught behind slower moving traffic. Sometimes that traffic includes slower moving cyclists riding 2-abreast. That doesn’t make the cyclists or other causes of traffic slowing you down rude.

@Roscoe 9925 wrote:

So according to this, on some of the roads where i live in MD near the DC border……..cars can NEVER legally pass cyclists, since they would always have to cross a double yellow line to do so ? That sure doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense to me. If that’s the case, as an avid cyclist myself I would strongly advocate forbidding cyclists from the road.

I’ve been meaning to look up local traffic regulations, but I do think the norm is that double yellow line means it’s NEVER legal to cross it. So NEVER legal to pass cars driving more slowly than you, NEVER legal to pass trucks driving more slowly than you, NEVER legal for you to pass cyclists.

Do you mean that we should ban all forms of transportation that move slower than you from the roads? Or have a minimum speed limit? On residential roads?

@DismalScientist 9935 wrote:

If this were true, it would be illegal to filter through traffic if the cars were moving at all.

My understanding is that bikes can pass cars without regard to the 3 foot law. Yes, it’s a double standard, but I think it’s warranted.

@Roscoe 9936 wrote:

I guess I’m just different from you in that I would prefer people to voluntarily show others some courtesy instead of telling them to deal with my deliberate rudeness and go “advocate” a change if I didn’t like it.

Personally, I’d like you to voluntarily to show me (a cyclist who takes the lane when warranted) the courtesy of looking at the issue from my perspective. You seem unwilling to do so.

[jabberwocky]

Like I said, I have no familiarity with the road in question. How wide is the lane though? If its less than 14 feet, it doesn’t really matter (that would be a substandard lane, given an average operating bike width of ~4 feet, 3 feet of passing distance per DC law, and an average vehicle width of 5.5-7 feet). In that case, cars must go into oncoming traffic to pass legally and safely regardless of where the bike is positioned, so I don’t see why it matters where the bikes are positioned or how many of them there are. All riding right does on those roads is encourage motorists to make marginal (or frankly dangerous) passes.

[Mark Blacknell]

Roscoe, you should get out and ride more. Perhaps even with all these awful people who make you sick/disgust you. Might help alleviate some of that frustration. If the weather’s not nice enough for that, I’d suggest a review of our local laws and a cycling safety class.

[dbb]

Holy crap Batman! 16.8 posts per day! Dirt’s most venerated status may be in jeopardy.

I fear Roscoe may be communicating with the single likely audience that serves to disprove the hypothesis – the members of this forum. I’d wager his thoughts are going unheard by those that have helped form that thesis.

Every day I’m sure each of us see a cyclist doing something boneheaded. It is those folks that would benefit from this discussion. Absent specifics (often difficult to provide), this has become something of a Talmudic discussion (how many angels can actually ride on a given bike?). While it has been fun to offer an opinion or two, the conversation seems to have deteriorated to something along the lines of “I’m right because you are wrong” Like most disputes, the truth is likely somewhere in the middle. Maybe I take a lane longer than is necessary or maybe the motorist is an ill tempered hothead. Both could be true, or neither. From a probabilistic perspective, the distribution of right-wrong is not likely to be binary. Most of our actions are likely to have a little of each in them.

Let’s look for specific, actionable things each of us could implement to make our use of the roads and trails a bit more harmonious. A great exemplar of that type discussion is the recent threads on flashing light use. Not only were they enjoyable, I learned something!

The collective experience of this forum has demonstrated an amazing ability to collaboratively focus on many of the cycling issues of the day and craft workable solutions/strategies. That has helped promote cycling in the area, which I think is one of the broad goals we all joined for. This thread might need to go down in the agree to disagree category.

[vvill]

I’m a bit confused with all the back and forth in this thread.

Roscoe – are you basically saying you should never ride two abreast or take the lane because it makes it harder for cars to pass? Or do you mean only in certain roads and conditions?

I think it’s pretty much accepted that there are times when you should take the lane because you want to make sure cars don’t try to pass. Ever tried riding through a multi-lane traffic circle on the right edge of a lane?

[Roscoe]

@vvill 10004 wrote:

Roscoe – are you basically saying you should never ride two abreast or take the lane because it makes it harder for cars to pass? Or do you mean only in certain roads and conditions?

I think it’s pretty much accepted that there are times when you should take the lane because you want to make sure cars don’t try to pass. Ever tried riding through a multi-lane traffic circle on the right edge of a lane?

In short, I’m saying that I live around roads that are probably among the most heavily cycled in Montgomery County MD, including by me, and I constantly see people riding 2-abreast when it is CLEARLY not necessary or warranted. This happens ALL THE TIME, and it doesn’t make the cyclists any safer than if they rode on the right, as I do and as courteous cyclists do. They cause a lot of backlogs and inconvenience on the roads and they cause cars to have a more difficult time passing, which makes everything less safe for EVERYONE, themselves included.

There are a lot of people here who either lack basic reading comprehension, or want to create a strawman argument – they are trying to put words into my mouth, and argue that I am saying a cyclist should NEVER take the whole lane, or ride 2-abreast. Which is clearly not what I’m saying. Again, in short, I’m just saying that when it’s clearly not warranted, it is EXTREMELY ANNOYING AND RUDE to not ride on the right.

Now, we’ve gotten a lot of talk about whether the cyclist feels safe, or who am I to be the judge…..but these people on weekends can SEE OTHER CYCLISTS safely riding on the right, even cyclists in file. They know damn well it’s perfectly safe to ride on the right and let people pass easily. There’s a pretty good chance they’ve done it themselves when riding the same road solo. But they instead choose to be rude.

[Roscoe]

@Mark Blacknell 10000 wrote:

Roscoe, you should get out and ride more. Perhaps even with all these awful people who make you sick/disgust you. Might help alleviate some of that frustration. If the weather’s not nice enough for that, I’d suggest a review of our local laws and a cycling safety class.

Hey thanks, I think I will !! In fact I got just over 20 miles in today which isn’t too bad for a weekday.

Give me a wave if you see me – I’ll be the one that’s only a fairly decent cyclist wearing pretty old and shaggy catalog clothes, but lucky enough to have an awesome 2nd-hand Scattante at a good discount from a friend who races.

Oh, and I’ll also be riding in a manner that’s as courteous as possible to you if you’re driving, cuz I’m pretty sure you’ll be returning the favor. And if I’m with a buddy and we want to chat and BS while we ride…….we won’t be riding side by side when it’s not necessary, backing up and inconveniencing traffic like a couple of inconsiderate pricks. We’ll wait until we’re in a neighborhood for that. 😎

[Roscoe]

@dbb 10001 wrote:

…this has become something of a Talmudic discussion (how many angels can actually ride on a given bike?). While it has been fun to offer an opinion or two, the conversation seems to have deteriorated to something along the lines of “I’m right because you are wrong” Like most disputes, the truth is likely somewhere in the middle…..

Yeah you make some real good points, not just the quoted part here.

I’ve vented, so I’ll let it go. And I agree that this is probably not an audience chock full of rude offenders. But I’m also pretty sure it struck a little close to home with a few. Hence their trying to put words into my mouth and assert that I’m trying to say one should NEVER take the entire lane. So it is.

But I’ll try to put a positive spin on it the next time I’m going 10-15 mph on Jones Mill Rd while behind a couple guys side by side who by appearances could plausibly pass as pro riders and who can clearly see cyclists safely riding to the right not too far in front of them…..and with traffic backed up behind me because, while I know from experience that it’s perfectly safe to pass a rider who is on the right, it’s more dangerous to swing 100% into the oncoming lane and so I don’t.

Or if I’m driving the mile or so down Beach Drive near where the Rock Creek Park is closed to traffic on weekends and I’m behind the pack of (other) middle-aged professionals who probably aren’t even going 10 mph as they take the entire lane, just so they can bull***t with eachother while riding before they get to where there aren’t even going to BE any motorists.

Or….well, I’m pretty sure you get the point.

And I know, it’s only a few minutes here and a few minutes there and it’s realistically probably only a couple to a half-dozen times per weekend at most that ones get’s inconvenienced like this for no good reason. So sure I can deal with it. And hey…maybe I’m wrong – maybe my idea that if people actually TRIED to be courteous to other people, then travel around here would be a little more pleasant is just….a bad idea. I’ll try to explore the possibility that maybe the solution isn’t to try to show others the courtesy and respect we all would appreciate……but rather just to deal with the rudeness. I’m sure everyone else takes that approach to rude people in other similarly recurring situations…….

[washcycle]

@Roscoe 9938 wrote:

What I’m saying is that it disgusts me that I see so many cyclists that I am absolutely convinced take the road with the deliberate intent to flex their ego by riding 2-abreast, and inconveniencing the traffic, when they could just as easily show others a little respect by riding single file to enable traffic to pass more easily.

And this, I think, is the fundamental problem. You’re coinvinced that you know WHY they are doing what they do. Think about that for a minute. That requires amazing insight. Empathic, mind-reading like insight. The fact is that you don’t know why they’re doing it.

Perhaps it is for their own safety or the safety of others. Whether they are correct or not wouldn’t matter, because that wouldn’t be rude.

Perhaps it is blissful ignorance. Again…not rude.

But you CHOSE to be “absolutely convinced” that it is with “deliberate intent to flex their ego” which frankly I find to be the least likely explanation. I’ve talked with a lot of cyclists and NO ONE talks about doing. Perhaps you could cite some evidence to the contrary?

What you’ve not yet heard is someone say “I do that, ride two abreast to flex my ego, all the time.” Doesn’t that tell you something? This is a classic case of the fundamental attributioin error.

Here’s my advice. Stop taking it personally. They are not doing this TO YOU. Just assume that they aren’t trying to be rude and that they are trying to be safe. You asked me about line-cutters, I assume that they don’t realize there is a line and politely point them to the end of the line – and usually I’m right. And I’m a happier person for it.

If you would give people the benefit of the doubt – and there has to be doubt unless you’re a mind reader – you’ll be much happier.

Or you can decide that when people block your way, they are doing it as a personal attack on you. They are doing it to hurt YOU. They hate YOU. Not how I would go through life, but it is an option.

[Author]

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