Washington Blvd repaving thru Westover

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 188355 wrote:

to hell!

If we pave the road with good intentions, will that meet NACTO standards? Will it be ADA compliant? Can we implement a congestion charge?

[lordofthemark]

@dasgeh 188351 wrote:

Where would the pedestrians go?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vixFxgDODs0

[sjclaeys]

Last post unless the county comes out with new proposals. If you want to guarantee future resistance in any of the neighborhoods near Westover against any bicycle infrastructure, go ahead and push having a PBL through Westover on Washington Blvd. Don’t know which is worse with bicycle advocacy people, the political tone deafness or the “I know better than everyone and don’t dare tell me I’m ever wrong” attitude.

[Judd]

@Erin Potter 187842 wrote:

Come discuss over pickles*!
Project staff also will be available at the Westover Farmer’s Market, in the Westover Library Plaza, on Sunday, March 3. Stop by for information about the project and to provide feedback.

*Pickles dependent on my ability to set up for this event and attendance of a particular farmer’s market vendor.

You got any of them pickles still?

[Judd]

In conclusion, everyone has a different vision for this block and streets in general and how to achieve that vision and for a variety of reasons and motivations and that’s ok.

Additional point: none of you invited me out for a beer at the Westover beer garden. SAD!

[sjclaeys]

@Judd 188368 wrote:

In conclusion, everyone has a different vision for this block and streets in general and how to achieve that vision and for a variety of reasons and motivations and that’s ok.

Additional point: none of you invited me out for a beer at the Westover beer garden. SAD!

Dammit Judd, being all reasonable and positive again!

[Erin Potter]

@Judd 188367 wrote:

You got any of them pickles still?

My pickle vendor wasn’t there. I did buy bread… which was delicious and consumed very quickly after the event.

[dasgeh]

@DismalScientist 188356 wrote:

I wasn’t going to bring this up, but if you look at the segment explore feature on Strava you will see that the grades on 16th Street are actually less than that those on Washington Blvd. As a frequent rider on both, I can confirm that, in fact 16th Street is flatter. (But, of course, one would expect 16th Street to be flatter as it is an older transportation corridor.)

Not sure where you’re looking, but I studied this very closely when I had to take a kid to Upton hill from Cherrydale with no assist. Washington Blvd is much flatter, particularly in the stretch covering Harrison and Patrick Henry (which makes sense, as you have to go up from Washington to 16th).

@DismalScientist 188356 wrote:

As to how to get to the Hospital from Westover,

No one asked this. It was EFC.

@DismalScientist 188356 wrote:

From EFC to Westover, I would take the WOD to the pedestrian bridge to the Custis Spurt and up McKinley. This way I avoid the hill on Wash east of Sycamore and the associated merge area caused by traffic engineers thinking that is is smart having two lanes going straight east at the light at Sycamore. (Just take a gander at their plans for the future of EFC, where they are going to eliminate the right turn lane at Sycamore when it appears that half the traffic turns right and the other half goes straight.)[/quote]
You’re route is more complicated and harder to follow, which is my point. The current route on Washington isn’t safe and comfortable, but should be made so.

@DismalScientist 188356 wrote:

W-L to Tuckahoe? W-L is basically on top of the Custis trail, which basically intersects with Sycamore just south of East Falls Church metro, one block south of Washington Blvd. So the route is Custis (to WOD) to trail to access Metro. North on Sycamore and left on 26th. Another advantage of using this over Washington Blvd is that, east of Glebe, Washington Blvd is two narrow lanes each way with absolutely no accommodations for cyclists. West of Glebe to Harrison, Wash Blvd is one lane each way with wider lanes, but no bike lane paint.[/quote]
Again, your route is hillier and longer. The current route on Washington isn’t safe and comfortable, but should be made so.

@DismalScientist 188356 wrote:

Where do the pedestrians going on the “PBLs” cited above. After all, they are actually MUPs.

Huh? PBLs are not MUPs – they are restricted to wheeled transportation (scooters etc welcome).

[EasyRider]

@dasgeh 188383 wrote:

Huh? PBLs are not MUPs – they are restricted to wheeled transportation (scooters etc welcome).

Darn right. And in practice this means that if there was a PBL on the north side of Washington in Westover, after backing into a parking spot in front of Ayers hardware, said driver-turned-pedestrian has two options:

1. Use a bike or a scooter or other two-wheeled vehicle to cross the PBL and get to the sidewalk.
2. Hoof it to one of the new crosswalks and cross the PBL there.

No popping out into the PBL in between parked cars, pedestrians!

[josh]

@dasgeh 188383 wrote:

Huh? PBLs are not MUPs – they are restricted to wheeled transportation (scooters etc welcome).

In defense of Dismal, he asked for examples of PBLs on streets lined with single family homes, and the examples mentioned (W&OD along Virginia Ln, path along MacArthur Blvd) are multi-use paths, not protected bike lanes, and I don’t think he ever claimed that.

[lordofthemark]

@EasyRider 188385 wrote:

Darn right. And in practice this means that if there was a PBL on the north side of Washington in Westover, after backing into a parking spot in front of Ayers hardware, said driver-turned-pedestrian has two options:

1. Use a bike or a scooter or other two-wheeled vehicle to cross the PBL and get to the sidewalk.
2. Hoof it to one of the new crosswalks and cross the PBL there.

No popping out into the PBL in between parked cars, pedestrians!

peds are allowed to walk across PBL’s, just as they are allowed to cross general travel lanes. They are not allowed to proceed on a PBL, just as they are not allowed to proceed in a general travel (with exceptions where there is no sidewalk) I mean I suppose its true that they can only legally cross a PBL at a crosswalk – never enforced. I suppose it could matter in a tort case. I know when I ride on the Maine PBL, my assumption is that the unlawfulness of the peds who cross it regularly, and even walk on it, does not protect me at all.

I also believe that people accessing a parked car are allowed to enter a PBL or conventional bike lane away from a crosswalk, just as they are allowed to enter the roadway (whether or not there is stripe differentiating the general travel lane from the parking lane) in order to do so. How else would people access the driver side of a car in an ordinary on street parking space where there is no bike infrastructure? Is there an implicit separation of parking zone from general travel lane even when there is no parking lane striping?

[lordofthemark]

@josh 188386 wrote:

In defense of Dismal, he asked for examples of PBLs on streets lined with single family homes, and the examples mentioned (W&OD along Virginia Ln, path along MacArthur Blvd) are multi-use paths, not protected bike lanes, and I don’t think he ever claimed that.

I believe this confusion began with comments from Zsionakides who is not on the BAC and who believes that bike advocates are not pushing hard enough for PBLs. Zsionakides, I hope you have found this exchange illuminating. I would note that out in the real world, its far worse (and that is true even when we try to be very politically savvy in what we ask for and how we ask for it, which most of us do)

[EasyRider]

@lordofthemark 188389 wrote:

peds are allowed to walk across PBL’s, just as they are allowed to cross general travel lanes. They are not allowed to proceed on a PBL, just as they are not allowed to proceed in a general travel (with exceptions where there is no sidewalk) I mean I suppose its true that they can only legally cross a PBL at a crosswalk – never enforced. I suppose it could matter in a tort case. I know when I ride on the Maine PBL, my assumption is that the unlawfulness of the peds who cross it regularly, and even walk on it, does not protect me at all.

I also believe that people accessing a parked car are allowed to enter a PBL or conventional bike lane away from a crosswalk, just as they are allowed to enter the roadway (whether or not there is stripe differentiating the general travel lane from the parking lane) in order to do so. How else would people access the driver side of a car in an ordinary on street parking space where there is no bike infrastructure? Is there an implicit separation of parking zone from general travel lane even when there is no parking lane striping?

I guess my assertion that one of the “options” a driver has for crossing a four foot wide PBL is a wheeled conveyance was not ridiculous enough. The point I was trying to make is that in this context, you’d need such ridiculous rules to avoid conflicts with pedestrians who would be constantly crossing the PBL to reach parked cars, all up and down the length of Washington Blvd in Westover. My guess is that is why a PBL isn’t one of the options shown.

[lordofthemark]

@EasyRider 188393 wrote:

I guess my assertion that one of the “options” a driver has for crossing a four foot wide PBL is a wheeled conveyance was not ridiculous enough. The point I was trying to make is that in this context, you’d need such ridiculous rules to avoid conflicts with pedestrians who would be constantly crossing the PBL to reach parked cars, all up and down the length of Washington Blvd in Westover. My guess is that is why a PBL isn’t one of the options shown.

When I ride down 31st street to Shirlington pedestrians constantly cross the street (in between the widely spaced crosswalks) to get to their cars. They do so on Park Center Drive where I live. They cross both the general travel lane and the bike lane on North Hampton Drive.

I am not commenting on the practicality of any particular treatment on Washington Blvd. I just want to clarify the law.

[lordofthemark]

@EasyRider 188393 wrote:

I guess my assertion that one of the “options” a driver has for crossing a four foot wide PBL is a wheeled conveyance was not ridiculous enough. The point I was trying to make is that in this context, you’d need such ridiculous rules to avoid conflicts with pedestrians who would be constantly crossing the PBL to reach parked cars, all up and down the length of Washington Blvd in Westover. My guess is that is why a PBL isn’t one of the options shown.

What other than the level of parking turnover, makes it different from here, say?

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8586265,-77.05331,3a,75y,307.05h,73.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCmi6h3TpJQD6zF1DNVB17g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I mean don’t parking protected bike lanes always involve people crossing the bike lane to access their parked cars?

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