Washington Blvd pushback

[Judd]

@Sunyata 173664 wrote:

Stay tuned… I think my goal of this Freezing Saddles is to go to a happy hour at least once a week. This week is Clare & Don’s… Next week, though… Westover?!

YES!

And this thread has been successfully hijacked to talk about beer, restoring balance to the universe.

[rcannon100]

That and Calvinball has morphed into a game where we give hard liquor to each other – like all true freezing cultures – FS has morphed into a chapter of AA!

[Emm]

@Judd 173663 wrote:

My God! FINALLY! And yes. We should drink beer in Westover.

Bonus points for EVERYONE if we can get ice cream at Tobys after…

[reji]

Ground Hog Day happy hour at Westover Beer Garden!

[accordioneur]

@reji 173673 wrote:

Ground Hog Day happy hour at Westover Beer Garden!

I’m almost always up for a visit to the Beer Garden. Groundhog night I have someplace to be at 6:30, so my stop at WBG would have to be a short one. Since what’s most important is my convenience, how about Westover on the 2/8?

[dasgeh]

@DismalScientist 173631 wrote:

You are simply wrong. The church ended up with exactly the same number of spots as before this whole thing started. The basic problem was that when designing the initial plan, no one made both the observation that putting in the bike lanes and bus stop would effectively cut the on-street parking by one half and the conclusion that perhaps it would be a good idea to directly inform the church that this would be the effect of the initial plan and give it some input early in the process. Sure, it was “public knowledge” that Washington Blvd would be restriped, but it was unclear what this really meant.

The church ended up with more parking spaces only relative to the initial plan not relative to before, yet this disinformation remains. Removal of the diagonal spaces to make room for a bus stop is nonsensical — the diagonal spaces are only used on Sunday and Metro data said that the bus stop was only used by 1 person per day. The supposed lack of effort in finding other solutions is a strawman–you can’t create more parking on other streets because the other streets already have no parking restrictions and the neighbors are already complaining. Able-bodied members are already encouraged to park farther away to make room in front of the church for the elderly.

If you remember that meeting a Reed School, you will note that people from the neighborhood were almost unanimously opposed to the initial plan with bike lanes on both sides of the street. The people who supported the full bike lanes were bicyclists from other parts of Arlington, most of whom rarely ride on Washington Blvd. As far as I can tell, the person that rode most frequently on Washington Blvd at the meeting was me. My impression of the meeting seemed to be that bicycle advocates were forcing something on the neighborhood that the neighborhood did not want.

The revised plan called for eastbound bicycle traffic to use Quantico and 18th Street. Chris asked whether anyone had done a study of these streets and the answer was no. Chris then asked whether anyone had ridden these streets to see if they were sufficiently safe. Of course, I was the only one who raised my hand and if you had actually wanted me to answer I would have said they were perfectly fine. Also there was the question about whether the intersection of 18th and Ohio was safe. For an inexperienced rider, that intersection is safer than riding in (or out of) a bike lane on Washington Blvd. If you are worried about the vulnerable, I would suggest concentrating on a safe network of bike routes on neighborhood streets rather than putting bike lanes on arterial roads.

Unless the County was just lying, then the angle parking used to be allowed only on Sundays. The change to allow that parking every day created many more parking spaces on non-Sundays. Engineers told those of us listening that one or two extra spots were created by changing the angle of the parking.

No one is defending the County’s process and saying it was good. But the fact that the bike lane was drawn in the initial drawings was because it was in the master plans. Not some mumbo-jumbo about the Bike Lobby. And some of us did have creative solutions for creating spaces for the church. The County was not interested in listening.

I remember a lot about that meeting at the Reed School. I remember that not everyone got a chance to speak. I remember that those that did speak represented a small percentage of the room. I remember that one woman who spoke was a local who SUPPORTED the bike lanes. I remember another local man who spoke, who not supported the bike lanes, but gave specific feedback about how the “detour” was dangerous (which immediately preceded Chris’s question about whether staff had studied the bike lanes). It’s fair to say that plenty of locals in attendance opposed the full bike lanes, but it’s a stretch to say it was almost unanimous — it wasn’t even almost unanimous of the locals who spoke.

More scientifically, one could look at the break down of public comment. Something like 85% of the respondents overall supported the bike lane, as did 55% of respondents FROM THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

Finally, about “forcing something on the neighborhood that the neighborhood did not want” — we’re talking about a public street. It is not the “neighborhood’s” street. It’s a street for everyone who passes through there. We make decisions on a County-wide level so that we can balance trade-offs and build a system that works for the entire County. But the County needs to honor those plans. In this case, the County did not implement the Master Transportation Plan in this respect, because of the voices of a minority of the County and a minority of the neighborhood. That’s not good policy-making.

[DismalScientist]

Making the diagonal spaces available on days other than Sunday does not benefit the church. There is insufficient demand for parking on those days.

Sure, the county master plan calls for bike lanes. Who was consulted when these master plans were created and how much were individual elements debated? The Highland Park/Overlee Knolls Neighborhood Conservation plan clearly states a desire to make the streets safe for all users after consultation with the neighborhood.

As a generic concept, I don’t think the neighborhood has any real problem with bike lanes. I know that I don’t (although I do question how they are implemented). The problem is the specific implementation in the initial plan.

The guy that complained about the danger of the alternative route was saying that the corner of Quantico and 18th was blind. These are two streets with almost no traffic. The argument that this precludes assigning it as a bike route is transparently pure crap. Chris also raised the strawman about the intersection of 18th and Ohio. I might feel less hostility if Chris had not asked whether anyone had every ridden these sides streets and once he saw that I was the only one raising my hand, he turned away–and this was before I made my statement.

If you wanted a creative solution, perhaps you could have proposed full bike lanes both ways (without the reduction of diagonal parking due to the bus stop) with the provision that people could park in the eastbound bike lane on Sundays in the 6200 block. Here you would have Sunday-only sharrows.

(Do you know why the county insisted on back in diagonal parking? That proposal was unanimously panned. County staff cited some study justifying back in county. A VDOT traffic engineer who is a member of the church says that the study was conducted on a low speed (15mph) road and is completely inapplicable. I have a feeling that people will park both front and back in and none of this will ever be enforced.)

[Judd]

@accordioneur 173676 wrote:

I’m almost always up for a visit to the Beer Garden. Groundhog night I have someplace to be at 6:30, so my stop at WBG would have to be a short one. Since what’s most important is my convenience, how about Westover on the 2/8?

Why not both?

[DrP]

Clearly the world (including Arlington) has whiners. It isn’t hard to drive the road if you are paying attention. But that is rare, I admit.
Living half a block from Washington Blvd, I use it frequently. If I am walking to East Falls Church (station or shops/restaurants) and have time constraints, Wash Blvd is the route since it is much shorter than the trail. Otherwise, I am usually going further out on W&OD, so the the trail makes more overall sense (and my biking buddy really, really prefers trails). I will likely use the road on the few occasions I bike to the FC farmers market.
I drive along this section of road to get to places frequently. Before the change, the general traffic speed was >40mph. Note that the limit is 30mph. After the change, well, many weeks after, people are going closer to 30mph. Other than the odd yellow line bulb-outs at Quantico and Roosevelt (which make drivers slightly swerve to not drive on yellow lines), the striping is easy to follow *if you pay attention.* I know, that is soooo diffucult to do while driving. If they posted some signs, even temporary ones, indicating that the new striping requires reduced speed (I bet there are official words for that somewhere), more people might not have had issues. I think we are getting use to it. Now it is only between Glebe and Westover that >40mph is more typical (and closer to rt50).

I am still waiting for bike lanes from Harrison (current eastern end of bike lanes) and Pentagon City…

And I will gladly meet people for wine (not whine, but likely some of that will appear) at the Italian Store. Or an espresso. or cannoli or gelato…

[dasgeh]

@DismalScientist 173739 wrote:

Making the diagonal spaces available on days other than Sunday does not benefit the church. There is insufficient demand for parking on those days.[/quote]
The church asked for this, to aid with funerals and other services. The child care center in the church also asked for this.

@DismalScientist 173739 wrote:

Sure, the county master plan calls for bike lanes. Who was consulted when these master plans were created and how much were individual elements debated? The Highland Park/Overlee Knolls Neighborhood Conservation plan clearly states a desire to make the streets safe for all users after consultation with the neighborhood.[/quote]
My understanding is that the EFC planning process had a pretty extensive discussion of the bike lane. I believe that is the most recent relevant plan.

@DismalScientist 173739 wrote:

The guy that complained about the danger of the alternative route was saying that the corner of Quantico and 18th was blind. These are two streets with almost no traffic. The argument that this precludes assigning it as a bike route is transparently pure crap. [/quote]
He admitted there wasn’t much traffic, except for a school bus route that used those streets in the morning, and would be coming opposite on coming cyclists. The recommendation was to talk to APS about that route. My understanding is that that hasn’t happened.

@DismalScientist 173739 wrote:

If you wanted a creative solution, perhaps you could have proposed full bike lanes both ways (without the reduction of diagonal parking due to the bus stop) with the provision that people could park in the eastbound bike lane on Sundays in the 6200 block. Here you would have Sunday-only sharrows.

I DID PROPOSE THIS. I proposed lots of creative solutions. I suggested that the County at least split the baby and implement what they want now and study next year. The County ignored them.

@DismalScientist 173739 wrote:

(Do you know why the county insisted on back in diagonal parking? That proposal was unanimously panned. County staff cited some study justifying back in county. A VDOT traffic engineer who is a member of the church says that the study was conducted on a low speed (15mph) road and is completely inapplicable. I have a feeling that people will park both front and back in and none of this will ever be enforced.)

YES! Think about what will happen when a car backs out of the current interior parking spaces, which have a bike lane immediately adjacent to the rear of the space. How in the world could a driver see an oncoming car, let alone an oncoming cyclist? A driver would be at a better angle to see the reverse lights, and anticipate a reversing car, but someone on a bike in the lane may not even be able to see the reverse lights. Back-in gives the driver a better chance of seeing oncoming traffic. I’m pretty terrified of riding there, and took the lane the one time I rode here and there were cars parked in those spaces.

[creadinger]

Could someone please post a map of this route so us Alexandria people who find your Arlington streets confusing as hell can at least have some situational awareness on this? I do not want to get involved in the discussion.

At this point I can’t say if I’ve ever ridden, or driven on this road.

[lordofthemark]

@DrP 173768 wrote:

Clearly the world (including Arlington) has whiners. It isn’t hard to drive the road if you are paying attention. But that is rare, I admit.
Living half a block from Washington Blvd, I use it frequently. If I am walking to East Falls Church (station or shops/restaurants) and have time constraints, Wash Blvd is the route since it is much shorter than the trail. Otherwise, I am usually going further out on W&OD, so the the trail makes more overall sense (and my biking buddy really, really prefers trails). I will likely use the road on the few occasions I bike to the FC farmers market.
I drive along this section of road to get to places frequently. Before the change, the general traffic speed was >40mph. Note that the limit is 30mph. After the change, well, many weeks after, people are going closer to 30mph. Other than the odd yellow line bulb-outs at Quantico and Roosevelt (which make drivers slightly swerve to not drive on yellow lines), the striping is easy to follow *if you pay attention.* I know, that is soooo diffucult to do while driving. If they posted some signs, even temporary ones, indicating that the new striping requires reduced speed (I bet there are official words for that somewhere), more people might not have had issues. I think we are getting use to it. Now it is only between Glebe and Westover that >40mph is more typical (and closer to rt50).

I am still waiting for bike lanes from Harrison (current eastern end of bike lanes) and Pentagon City…

And I will gladly meet people for wine (not whine, but likely some of that will appear) at the Italian Store. Or an espresso. or cannoli or gelato…

Why do you hate our freedom?

[lordofthemark]

@creadinger 173837 wrote:

Could someone please post a map of this route so us Alexandria people who find your Arlington streets confusing as hell can at least have some situational awareness on this? I do not want to get involved in the discussion.

At this point I can’t say if I’ve ever ridden, or driven on this road.

https://www.strava.com/segments/16702081

[DismalScientist]

@dasgeh 173822 wrote:

The church asked for this, to aid with funerals and other services. The child care center in the church also asked for this.

My understanding is that the EFC planning process had a pretty extensive discussion of the bike lane. I believe that is the most recent relevant plan.

YES! Think about what will happen when a car backs out of the current interior parking spaces, which have a bike lane immediately adjacent to the rear of the space. How in the world could a driver see an oncoming car, let alone an oncoming cyclist? A driver would be at a better angle to see the reverse lights, and anticipate a reversing car, but someone on a bike in the lane may not even be able to see the reverse lights. Back-in gives the driver a better chance of seeing oncoming traffic. I’m pretty terrified of riding there, and took the lane the one time I rode here and there were cars parked in those spaces.

On non-Sunday diagonal parking–During the weekdays, people would just parallel park in the diagonal spaces. It didn’t seem to be an issue. I don’t know in the future whether this would be frowned on because of the painted lines. In any case, whether the diagonal parking is/was effective not on Sundays doesn’t affect the bike lanes.

On the EFC planning process, 70-80% of this project is in HP/OK and not EFC. Perhaps the county should check a map before decided who to consult. I do not that the final EFC plan still has two eastbound through lanes on Washington at Sycamore and this leads to that ridiculous merge going uphill east of Sycamore. It also eliminates the right turn lane at Sycamore. Perhaps someone should inform the county that about 1/2 of the traffic turns at Sycamore and 1/2 goes straight.

On the back in parking: It’s easier to pull into a narrow space and back out into a wider space than vice versa. I guess it doesn’t really matter to me. I have no sheet metal in this fight. I certainly don’t drive to church.
However, even with back-in parking, I suggest you still “take the lane” because it is difficult for a driver pulling out of a diagonal spot to see traffic approaching from the rear that would be obscured by parked cars behind. Cyclists in the left side of the lane are much more visible than those in the bike lane proper.

I note that the street in front of the church has the exact configuration of parking as the Westover business block to the east. That parking is a hell of a lot more busy than in front of the church. That block does not have bike lanes and causes a discontinuity in the bike lanes. (Personally I have no problems biking on that block.) If the county wants to put bike lanes there, I would expect to see much more resistance than with the church.

[sjclaeys]

@reji 173673 wrote:

Ground Hog Day happy hour at Westover Beer Garden!

So is this still a thing today? Can probably get there around 6:15 if so.

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