Va. transportation plan: no gas tax, higher sales tax

[consularrider]

Dumbest.idea.ever! 😡 Just raise the bloody tax on fuel! The consumers already pay the costs for transportation of goods and services because that is factored into the retail prices of the goods and services. This means that I will be subsidising those who chose to live far from their work, or drive gas-guzzling behemoths. With this governor, I’m sure that bike and pedestrian funding would be neglected. However, I look forward to being proved wrong.

[consularrider]

Can’t say I like the governor’s proposal. I already pay the transportaion costs of the goods and services I consume since those costs are factored into the price I pay. With this proposal I end up subsidizing (even more than I do now) those who chose to live far from their work or drive gas-guzzling behemoths.

And as for bike and pedestrian funding, with this governor, if it isn’t there up front, it’s not there.

[mstone]

This is a guy subsidizing a billion dollar road to nowhere, who actually thinks the hot lanes are a great idea, and never saw a transit project he liked. And it’s a surprise he wants to shift the road funding burden away from motorists in order to further encourage sprawl and poor transportation planning? With a bonus penalty for hybrid cars? At least he’s being clear about his priorities. The real kick in the butt is that the drivers will still claim that we’re using their roads without paying for them.

[jrenaut]

Wait, I thought the plan was to raise the gas tax but drop something on the locals (income tax maybe?) to shift tax burden those who really drive a lot, or who are just passing through. This seems to be shifting the burden in the complete opposite direction. Also, the hybrid fee only makes a tiny bit of sense if you’re doing it to make up for a drop in revenue from the gas tax. Taking money from hybrid owners because they pay less FEDERAL gas tax is completely insane.

Not a VA resident, so it doesn’t directly affect me, but I hate to see my neighbors do dumb things.

[Greenbelt]

In MD, I thought the issue was that a separate gas tax wasn’t raising much if any more money than just including gas in the regular sales tax. Same issue here?

I think gas should be taxed higher than most other things, because of the pollution and congestion externalities as well as road maintenance, but that’s another issue…

[Rootchopper]

One thing they should consider is to make the gas tax a percentage of the price (like a sales tax on gas). Then the politicians can stop obsessing about it. Why I, as a bike commuter, should subsidize the building of lanes on I-66 is beyond me.

[baiskeli]

@Greenbelt 40056 wrote:

In MD, I thought the issue was that a separate gas tax wasn’t raising much if any more money than just including gas in the regular sales tax. Same issue here?

I think gas should be taxed higher than most other things, because of the pollution and congestion externalities as well as road maintenance, but that’s another issue…

I wish reporters would explain whether gas would be subject to the sales tax! If so, that would be the same as indexing it to inflation, and would continue to collect taxes from road users, including those passing through the state.

[mstone]

@Rootchopper 40058 wrote:

One thing they should consider is to make the gas tax a percentage of the price (like a sales tax on gas). Then the politicians can stop obsessing about it. Why I, as a bike commuter, should subsidize the building of lanes on I-66 is beyond me.

They flat out won’t do it. The downstate republicans think that cheap gas is some kind of divine right that came down from Sinai graven on tablets.

@baiskeli 40059 wrote:

I wish reporters would explain whether gas would be subject to the sales tax! If so, that would be the same as indexing it to inflation, and would continue to collect taxes from road users, including those passing through the state.

The problem is that the sales tax is much, much lower as a percentage than the gas tax, historically. 10 years ago, the state gas tax would have been something like 8-10% of a gallon of gas, and 15 years ago it would have been something above 15% (remember the days of cheap gas?) Now due to the skyrocketing cost of oil, it’s under 4.5% — and this proposal basically locks in the extremely low (historically) tax on gas forever, which can’t possibly be good for the long term prospects for transportation funding.

[Terpfan]

There is actually a series of competing problems with transportation funding. A significant portion of it boils down to the fact that the gas tax is antiquated. It was originally modeled for lower gas prices, less efficient vehicles and at a time when mass transit was far less of an option than it is today. Simply indexing it to inflation only addresses a portion of the problem and sort of negates that larger scope.

I say a series of competing issues because when your residents increasing use HOV/slug lanes, increasingly use mass transit, and have more fuel efficient vehicles than they’re costing the system more money. So-called “farebox recovery” is a serious issue when large portions of mass transit are underwritten by the state because every time you take a driver off the road to use the mass transit, you lose gas tax revenue AND then they cost you the difference between the true cost of the ride and what they actually pay (or the “recovery” amount).

The most plausible solutions (from a purely cost-to-use perspective) are also the least popular: per mile tax (essentially what the gas tax was until effeciencies came along), more toll roads and higher mass transit costs to more closely reflect costs on par with other subsidized transportation (including automobile).

My biggest worry with the plan is that it ignores the regional component of transportation fixes (not that I think MD is doing any better with grasping that concept). Suppose it passes, what will every MD, DC and WV driver do? They’ll buy gas in VA. But that also means they won’t be paying a gas tax in MD, DC and WV thus those jurisdictions will face an even larger dropoff in gas tax revenue. Meanwhile, I don’t expect a noticable difference in consumption in VA. I also suspect they’re still going to have a very hard time collecting the online sales tax and I wouldn’t count on the federal government doing anything.

[PotomacCyclist]

With gas taxes de-coupled from transportation spending completely, it will be even less convincing when single-occupant car drivers say that cyclists should pay for the roads if they want to use them. But as mentioned, the de-coupling probably won’t lead to expanded spending on bike/pedestrian infrastructure.

One of the key budget items is the state contribution for the Dulles Metro project. Fairfax County has already announced their goal of making the Tysons (Corner) area more walkable and bike-friendly, even though it could take decades to completely transform the area. WMATA has also announced goals of increasing the percentage of transit users who bike to Metro stations. Presumably that will include the new Silver Line stations in Northern Virginia.

If the new state transportation plan doesn’t explicitly include provisions for bike and pedestrian infrastructure projects and additions to other projects, then local jurisdictions and organizations like WABA and FABB will have to step up their game to ensure that bike infrastructure needs are not forgotten.

[Terpfan]

@Rootchopper 40058 wrote:

One thing they should consider is to make the gas tax a percentage of the price (like a sales tax on gas). Then the politicians can stop obsessing about it. Why I, as a bike commuter, should subsidize the building of lanes on I-66 is beyond me.

It’s less a problem of price point as it is vehicle efficiency and new fuel forms entering into the equation (hybrid, cheap natural gas, etc). The compromise on it all was Warner’s idea of regional variances in taxation, but I think the VA Supreme Court struck it down as unconstitutional.

[Terpfan]

@PotomacCyclist 40069 wrote:

With gas taxes de-coupled from transportation spending completely, it will be even less convincing when single-occupant car drivers say that cyclists should pay for the roads if they want to use them. But as mentioned, the de-coupling probably won’t lead to expanded spending on bike/pedestrian infrastructure.

One of the key budget items is the state contribution for the Dulles Metro project. Fairfax County has already announced their goal of making the Tysons (Corner) area more walkable and bike-friendly, even though it could take decades to completely transform the area. WMATA has also announced goals of increasing the percentage of transit users who bike to Metro stations. Presumably that will include the new Silver Line stations in Northern Virginia.

If the new state transportation plan doesn’t explicitly include provisions for bike and pedestrian infrastructure projects and additions to other projects, then local jurisdictions and organizations like WABA and FABB will have to step up their game to ensure that bike infrastructure needs are not forgotten.

I’m not sure if it exists, but I wonder if we have any sort of Price Waterhouse Cooper or similar economic impact/cost study showing how we’re really the smallest bite of the apple when it comes to subsidization. Most people forget that even driving is heavily subsidized. I gurantee we’re 1000x cheaper than mass transit. It’s just having a figure to say, ‘we’re not the problem, but we should be considered a big part of the solution,’ that I think will make a big difference in convincing folks from more rural districts.

[lordofthemark]

@baiskeli 40059 wrote:

I wish reporters would explain whether gas would be subject to the sales tax! If so, that would be the same as indexing it to inflation, and would continue to collect taxes from road users, including those passing through the state.

http://blogs.roanoke.com/dancasey/2013/01/your-thoughts-on-mcdonnells-abolish-the-gas-tax-scheme/

‘From the governor’s email:

“That’s right, no more gas tax at the pump. No sales tax at the pump either. When this plan passes the price of gas will go down, and Virginians will spend $3.5 billion LESS at the pump over the next five years.’

Drivers of cars and light trucks (diesel is another matter) will no longer pay anything (other than the car tax) directly for the roads they use (except where they are tolled) they will pay the sales tax on items OTHER than gasoline, same as any non motorist.

[jrenaut]

@jrenaut 40055 wrote:

Wait, I thought the plan was to raise the gas tax but drop something on the locals (income tax maybe?) to shift tax burden those who really drive a lot, or who are just passing through.

Ahh, I was sort of right. Via Greater Greater Washington, the plan I was thinking of was from Del. Dave Albo.

[chris_s]

It’s like McDonnell sat down with a bunch of advisers and said “Can you guys come up with something so looney that those Democrats who have been hounding me about fixing transportation funding might actually be tempted to vote against it?”

It almost completely decouples the idea of drivers paying for their roads (which was already partially decoupled) and pays for infrastructure with pretty much the most regressive kind of tax you can levy (sales). If this goes through, driving will increase in Virginia and the working poor will be disproportionately hit paying for it.

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