Traffic Ticket

[unclejed]

“Laws work best when they are voluntarily heeded by people who regard them as reasonable. There aren’t enough cops to coerce everyone into obeying every law all the time. If cycling laws were a wise response to actual cycling rather than a clumsy misapplication of motor vehicle laws, I suspect that compliance, even by me, would rise.”

I have read John Forester and while his ideas appeal to my mind, sitting behind a car spewing exhaust offends my senses.

[spiranthes]

What a horrible way to start the day. The ticket seems steep for the offense. I hope you appeal it.

[mstone]

@eminva 32855 wrote:

This is right. Or, as the League of American Bicyclists has it, “Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles.” Come to a Confident City Cycling class to learn more!

Note that means “don’t worry, everybody has an airbag and the insurance is contrib neg”…

[Greenbelt]

OK I’ll be the contrarian here.

I’m not impressed with this bit of enforcement at all. Unless unclejed was riding too fast or recklessly (which is not all that easy to do on a CaBi), it seems pretty gratuitous and nitpicky.

I’d rather the police target truly unsafe driving (or cycling), like speeding and running through lights after they change red and turning right on red without stopping or looking into the crosswalk.

Jumping out in front of a green light with the pedestrians is often safer for me, and if they ticket me, so be it. I’d rather be safe, and not get run off the road at the far side of an intersection.

[jabberwocky]

@Greenbelt 32903 wrote:

I’d rather the police target truly unsafe driving (or cycling), like speeding and running through lights after they change red and turning right on red without stopping or looking into the crosswalk.

I don’t disagree with you, but lets not kid ourselves; most traffic enforcement has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with revenue.

Yeah, the expensive ticket sucks. But he’s unlikely to win trying to fight it, because what was done was actually against the law. I have a few lights on my commute that I habitually run (some for safety reasons, others because they are sensor operated and lightly trafficked). I’m not gonna complain if I get a ticket though, because, well, it is against the law.

[Tim Kelley]

@Greenbelt 32903 wrote:

OK I’ll be the contrarian here.

I’m not impressed with this bit of enforcement at all. Unless unclejed was riding too fast or recklessly (which is not all that easy to do on a CaBi), it seems pretty gratuitous and nitpicky.

I’d rather the police target truly unsafe driving (or cycling), like speeding and running through lights after they change red and turning right on red without stopping or looking into the crosswalk.

Jumping out in front of a green light with the pedestrians is often safer for me, and if they ticket me, so be it. I’d rather be safe, and not get run off the road at the far side of an intersection.

In the end, I don’t think we know the whole story for either side really. Maybe Jed was riding too fast. Maybe Jed was just going to get a warning but then got mouthy with the officer and ended up getting a ticket instead?

If you break the law in front of a police officer, what do you expect them to do? Just look the other way? I know that regardless of my mode of travel I always pay more attention to my speed and following of the rules if I see an officer.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@Greenbelt 32903 wrote:

OK I’ll be the contrarian here.

I’m not impressed with this bit of enforcement at all. Unless unclejed was riding too fast or recklessly (which is not all that easy to do on a CaBi), it seems pretty gratuitous and nitpicky.

I’d rather the police target truly unsafe driving (or cycling), like speeding and running through lights after they change red and turning right on red without stopping or looking into the crosswalk.

Jumping out in front of a green light with the pedestrians is often safer for me, and if they ticket me, so be it. I’d rather be safe, and not get run off the road at the far side of an intersection.

Concur. The most vulnerable road users (peds and cyclists) need to consider their own safety first, the safety of others second, and the law third. Drivers have to do this too, but the law is written from a car-centric perspective and takes into account the safety needs specific to cars, so all three considerations are met at the same time. Current laws, however, do not properly address the growing interaction between peds/cyclists and drivers, and the unique needs of more vulnerable road users. When laws catch up to reality and are consistently enforced, then I’ll be more willing to obey them when cycling/walking. But until then, my own safety comes first, whether an officer is present or not.

[eminva]

Just a reminder — we’ve discussed this fully in other threads — but DC, Maryland and Virginia are all contributory negligence jurisdictions. Therefore, if you are involved in a crash and you are not 100% in compliance with the letter of the law (car centric though it may be), you may not be able to recover any damages for your injuries and you may also be subject to legal action for others’ damages — even if the other party was mostly or nearly entirely at fault.

Some people understand this and take a calculated risk, and that’s fine, but I want to make sure any newcomers are aware of this local quirk in liability law.

Liz

[mstone]

@Tim Kelley 32906 wrote:

If you break the law in front of a police officer, what do you expect them to do? Just look the other way?

That’s what they do for people intruding on a crosswalk when stopping, turning right on red without stopping, entering the intersection when it is not clear so they can turn left after the light is red, parking police cars in bike lanes, speeding through intersections, and all the other lawbreaking that is socially acceptable for cars and incredibly dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists. So remind me again why something that isn’t posing a danger to more vulnerable road users should be an enforcement priority? Just so a bike organization can try to claim a moral high ground? Pedestrian and cyclist safety rules get essentially zero enforcement from police, and “bike safety” pushes result in disproportionate enforcement against cyclists–which is absurd and does nothing to increase public safety. Look at what actions result in dead people, and target those instead of targeting things which piss off motorists and don’t affect public safety.

I let your “this is great!” comment pass, but then you asked…

[unclejed]

@Tim Kelley 32906 wrote:

In the end, I don’t think we know the whole story for either side really. Maybe Jed was riding too fast. Maybe Jed was just going to get a warning but then got mouthy with the officer and ended up getting a ticket instead?

If you break the law in front of a police officer, what do you expect them to do? Just look the other way? I know that regardless of my mode of travel I always pay more attention to my speed and following of the rules if I see an officer.

Sorry Tim, but I was riding a CaBi within the limits of safety and, as I reported earlier, I stopped at the light (not for the two minutes) prior to proceeding. Mouthy? The officer was pulling out his ticket book as soon as he stopped. Personally, I think he pulled me over because I was easy to catch [CaBi]. Although, he asked me for my registration (?)

[mstone]

@eminva 32908 wrote:

Just a reminder — we’ve discussed this fully in other threads — but DC, Maryland and Virginia are all contributory negligence jurisdictions. Therefore, if you are involved in a crash and you are not 100% in compliance with the letter of the law (car centric though it may be), you may not be able to recover any damages for your injuries and you may also be subject to legal action for others’ damages — even if the other party was mostly or nearly entirely at fault.

That’s not actually what the law is. That’s the de facto state of affairs given the cost of lawyers, but the de facto state of affairs is also that regardless of whether you think you’re compliant with the law your ability to recover damages is basically out of your control. I’m skeptical that the odds of getting money after being hit by a car are statistically different depending on riding style–so then we fall back to wondering what riding style makes you less likely to have to test those statistics.

[Tim Kelley]

@mstone 32910 wrote:

That’s what they do for people intruding on a crosswalk when stopping, turning right on red without stopping, entering the intersection when it is not clear so they can turn left after the light is red, parking police cars in bike lanes, speeding through intersections, and all the other lawbreaking that is socially acceptable for cars and incredibly dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists. So remind me again why something that isn’t posing a danger to more vulnerable road users should be an enforcement priority? Just so a bike organization can try to claim a moral high ground? Pedestrian and cyclist safety rules get essentially zero enforcement from police, and “bike safety” pushes result in disproportionate enforcement against cyclists–which is absurd and does nothing to increase public safety. Look at what actions result in dead people, and target those instead of targeting things which piss off motorists and don’t affect public safety.

I let your “this is great!” comment pass, but then you asked…

I support enforcement of laws as they apply to all modes of travel. If a car makes a right on red without stopping right in front of a office, I expect the officer to give a citation. If a pedestrian jaywalks right in front of officer, I expect the officer to give a citation. My point is that I’m glad to hear that ACPD is doing their job and enforcing laws. I’d like to see a greater police presence at lots of intersections!

In this situation, I do agree that perhaps a hefty fine was a bit overkill and a simple warning may have been more appropriate.

[jabberwocky]

@mstone 32910 wrote:

That’s what they do for people intruding on a crosswalk when stopping, turning right on red without stopping, entering the intersection when it is not clear so they can turn left after the light is red, parking police cars in bike lanes, speeding through intersections, and all the other lawbreaking that is socially acceptable for cars and incredibly dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists.

Just as a data point, I’ve seen Fairfax PD enforcing crosswalks along the W&OD several times around Reston over the years (by which I mean warning and ticketing cars that fail to yield to people crossing or blocking the crosswalk while stopped). So it does happen.

[Tim Kelley]

@unclejed 32911 wrote:

Sorry Tim, but I was riding a CaBi within the limits of safety and, as I reported earlier, I stopped at the light (not for the two minutes) prior to proceeding. Mouthy? The officer was pulling out his ticket book as soon as he stopped. Personally, I think he pulled me over because I was easy to catch [CaBi]. Although, he asked me for my registration (?)

I was pointing out that we don’t know the whole story. What you’ve told us is that you ran a red light.

Plenty of people here would agree that going through a red light can be more convenient and would even be safer in some situations, however, doing it in front of a police officer seems like a bad idea if you don’t want to get a ticket.

[Riley Casey]

Another vote for doing the SAFE thing first – for all stake holders. I expect that most of us have found many circumstances in that the path that creates the greatest safety for us as cyclists is to be in the pedestrian space. This is not synonymous with intimidating anyone. Its simply staying as far away from large, fast moving, often indifferently operated machinery as possible. As Greenbelt mentioned the traffic law enforcement resources must indeed be plentiful in Arlington that they can be squandered in this way. Cyclists I suppose aren’t as likely to lead the police on a high speed chase with the news copters hovering. I see this as a matter of triage. The police enforcement should, I would think be focused first on those things that create a hazard, be it speeding, J walking, running stop signs, any number of things. This on the other hand, no matter the statutes that can be cited, seems to fall below the threshold for that triage.

[Author]

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