The strange psychological phenomenon that explains why people hate cyclists

[lordofthemark]

@Brett L. 210374 wrote:

The Venn diagram between what is safe and what is legal are often two very non-concentric circles. I always choose what is safe versus what is legal…

Depending on the jurisdiction, there may not be any tolerance for leaving the PBL. Depending on the speed and density of traffic on the road, a box turn might be more appropriate.

Yeah. Where there’s an actual protected intersection like that one in DTSS, I will do the full Copenhagen left, for the sheer joy of the infrastructure. I will occasionally do a box left even when there is no bike lane involved, if I judge the speed and volume of traffic to warrant that. It will all depend on the intersection and the conditions.

[lordofthemark]

@ImaCynic 210380 wrote:

Perhaps this has less to do with “bike” laws, but rather more with the core principle behind majority of today’s traffic laws; who has the Right of Way. Having a clear understanding of RoW is the key to a peaceful co-existence as folks tend to get upset only when their right of way is taken, or the appearance that it is being ignored or not observed. I’d argue that this is where the disparity exists between motorists and cyclists. A majority of cars stop at red light and stop signs, but the same can’t be said for cyclists, despite knowing what the law requires.

I would venture that a very large number of cyclists who will Delaware a stop sign won’t Idaho a red, and plenty who will Idaho a red on an all red phase, will not do so when there is cross traffic (and many of the folks who Delaware at stop signs don’t proceed against right of way) I don’t want to rehash debates about the exact numbers in each category. But I don’t think that is the only, or even main, source of “cyclist hate”. I offer up again the example of my co alums who mentioned taking the lane, not red lights. And the times I have been punishment passed or honked at when riding completely legally (and quite cautiously).

I would add that people who ride know WHY it is sometimes safer to proceed on an all red phase, but I don’t want to emphasize that, as I don’t agree that that is the main issue.

I do think that having more folks ride is the key to having more understanding of riding, and thus less hate.

[lordofthemark]

@Steve O 210375 wrote:

Including police officers

So I had an officer interaction a few years back on 4th Street SW, where I was making a vehicular left on to Virginia to head to the metro station. I forget what the guy did, honked at me, punishment passed or cut me off, something. There was an officer (not MPD, one of the many federal forces, I forget which, maybe FPS?) I said “I have the right to be in the left lane, I was turning left” He said I had gone to the left lane too soon. She did NOT ticket him, but did not say I was in the wrong – I think it’s my judgement when I need to get to the left, as long as its not the next block.

[Steve O]

@ImaCynic 210380 wrote:

A majority of cars stop at … stop signs, ..

No they don’t. They think they do, but they don’t. Watch the wheels:

[video=youtube_share;pEbxeEbwUzs]https://youtu.be/pEbxeEbwUzs[/video]

[Steve O]

[video=youtube_share;hQXcyxdPJyc]https://youtu.be/hQXcyxdPJyc[/video]

BTW – I actually do not have a problem with this kind of “stopping.” It’s the equivalent of what we all do at a stop sign: we slow down enough to ascertain that all is safe and well, and then we proceed. Drivers do it; people on bikes do it; pedestrians do it (they don’t need to slow down, typically, to make this ascertainment). People on bikes do not need to slow as much as drivers do, because we are usually approaching at a slower speed to begin with and thus have more time to survey, we are usually higher up, we have no blind spots, and we can hear better, because our head is outside.

[ursus]

A couple of years ago, I got a ticket for not coming to a complete stop while heading east on Buckeye Drive to turn right on Ohio Drive while doing the Hains Point loop. Thankfully that particular officer has left and throughout the pandemic there has been no trouble. After the ticket, I counted how many cars do that. More than half did not stop including those turning left on Ohio which requires crossing a road. I did not count the police cars which don’t have to obey the law. The worst offenders are the NPS maintenance vehicles and their contractors which virtually never stop.

[ImaCynic]

@Steve O 210384 wrote:

No they don’t. They think they do, but they don’t. Watch the wheels:

[video=youtube_share;pEbxeEbwUzs]https://youtu.be/pEbxeEbwUzs[/video]

I guess I should qualify my previous statement with “when there are others”. If there is no RoW decision involved, who cares?

[dkel]

I read on the internet (which may mean this is false, because…internet) that the law never grants RoW, but rather defines when RoW must be yielded to another road user. The distinction probably doesn’t affect the present thread much, but I wonder how many potentially fraught traffic interactions would go more smoothly if all road users felt more inclined to yield for everyone’s safety, rather than assert their “right” as a territorial reflex.

[ImaCynic]

@dkel 210388 wrote:

I read on the internet (which may mean this is false, because…internet) that the law never grants RoW, but rather defines when RoW must be yielded to another road user. The distinction probably doesn’t affect the present thread much, but I wonder how many potentially fraught traffic interactions would go more smoothly if all road users felt more inclined to yield for everyone’s safety, rather than assert their “right” as a territorial reflex.

Either way, the RoW is the basis of most traffic laws and requires the knowledge of how this is applied in order to be a safe user of the roads.

Another practice that I wish motorists would do less of, particularly to cyclists is the notion of traffic “courtesy”, like coming up to a four-way stop with cars when I’m riding, or waiting to make a left turn. Even when the car has clear RoW, the driver often waits or stops to give RoW. What the driver does not realize is that this gesture often makes a situation more precarious by introducing the element of unpredictability as being predictable is safe, and courtesy is not predictable. Furthermore, this conjures up the “I shall grant you access” mentality of some drivers. So no thank you, I don’t want your courtesy, so save it as I much prefer that the driver just learn how traffic law works and how to apply it, properly.

[dkel]

@ImaCynic 210389 wrote:

Another practice that I wish that motorists would do less of, particularly to cyclists is the notion of traffic “courtesy”, like coming up to a four-way stop with car when I’m riding, or waiting to make a left turn. Even when the car has clear RoW, the driver often waits or stops to gives me RoW. What the driver does not realize is that this gesture often makes a situation more precarious by introducing the element of unpredictability as being predictable is safe, and courtesy is not predictable. Furthermore, this conjures up the “I shall grant you access” mentality of some drivers, so no thank you, I don’t want this courtesy, so save it as I much prefer that the driver just learn how traffic law works and how to apply it.

Totally this.

[Brendan von Buckingham]

@lordofthemark 210368 wrote:

This doesn’t really match my point though. People who regularly ride bikes on street generally have a pretty good idea of safe riding behavior, and of laws relating to bikes.

Similarly, drivers mostly have some idea (even if they violate it anyway) of how to drive safely around other cars, and what the laws are in that regard.

What drivers (and even car free pedestrians who do not ride bikes, sorry Steve) do not know, and what bike riders do know, are things like the dooring issue, the reasons to ride in the center of the lane, the need to get to the left to make a left turn, etc, etc.

If you ever see 3 cars arrive at a 4-way stop and execute it correctly according to the law, let me know. I’ll erect a silver Virginia history marker to commemorate the event.

[lordofthemark]

@Brendan von Buckingham 210392 wrote:

If you ever see 3 cars arrive at a 4-way stop and execute it correctly according to the law, let me know. I’ll erect a silver Virginia history marker to commemorate the event.

“mostly”

[Brett L.]

@Brendan von Buckingham 210392 wrote:

If you ever see 3 cars arrive at a 4-way stop and execute it correctly according to the law, let me know. I’ll erect a silver Virginia history marker to commemorate the event.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25291[/ATTACH]

Four way stop instead of the door.

[ImaCynic]

Stop signs? Yield signs? Traffic lights?

No. This is how it should be done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAjP5IL56Yc

[Brett L.]

@ImaCynic 210396 wrote:

Stop signs? Yield signs? Traffic lights?

No. This is how it should be done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAjP5IL56Yc

Obligatory google search tells me that that intersection is responsible for 8% of all traffic incidents within Addis Ababa.

[Author]

Posts