The Ethics of Breaking Traffic Laws

[Vicegrip]

And this is the problem. Even the law in print is confusing. I do not want any confusion when I am battling with cars. I am not taking chances even if I am in the “Right” I will take any and all actions as I see fit to reduce the chance of being hit by a car.

[peterw_diy]

@dplasters 177494 wrote:

I dunno, are they ‘ands’ or ‘ors’?

It can’t be “and” for the first item’s mid block scenario and the second item, which is all about the end of the block. There would be no point mentioning mid block in #1 if condition #2 were also required, ergo the motor vehicle operator must yield in any of the three conditions.

[peterw_diy]

@dplasters 177494 wrote:

What does it mean to not disregard traffic?

I take that to mean that a pedestrian should not start speed walking across a crosswalk if the pedestrian can discern that a motorist going 30 MPH is twenty feet away, but that it’s perfectly OK to begin crossing if the motorist could reasonably be expected to be capable of stopping or yielding (because the motorist is going slow enough or is far enough away).

[ImaCynic]

Here’s an interesting twist, according to this article, the distinction between “stop” vs. “yield right of way” is further blurred. It seems to suggest that VA drivers do not actually have to “stop” for anyone in the crosswalk, they only have to “yield right of way”. This is also reflected in ACPD’s webpage regarding Right of Way Pedestrians Law.

[DismalScientist]

@peterw_diy 177550 wrote:

I take that to mean that a pedestrian should not start speed walking across a crosswalk if the pedestrian can discern that a motorist going 30 MPH is twenty feet away, but that it’s perfectly OK to begin crossing if the motorist could reasonably be expected to be capable of stopping or yielding (because the motorist is going slow enough or is far enough away).

I view that as more of the standard under DC law. It assumes that drivers are paying attention. I think the Virginia standard is to not enter the street unless you can safely get across without drivers modifying their speed and direction. As a defensive cyclist and pedestrian, I think this is generally prudent.

[DismalScientist]

@f148vr 177554 wrote:

Here’s an interesting twist, according to this article, the distinction between “stop” vs. “yield right of way” is further blurred. It seems to suggest that VA drivers do not actually have to “stop” for anyone in the crosswalk, they only have to “yield right of way”. This is also reflected in ACPD’s webpage regarding Right of Way Pedestrians Law.

This means drivers can proceed behind a pedestrian before the pedestrian reaches the far curb. It also likely means that a driver on the opposite side can proceed in front of a pedestrian if the car and pedestrian will never be in close proximity.
The DC says that all cars (that physically can) must stop if a pedestrian steps foot in a sidewalk regardless of whether there is any potential conflict.

[lordofthemark]

@DismalScientist 177555 wrote:

I view that as more of the standard under DC law. It assumes that drivers are paying attention. I think the Virginia standard is to not enter the street unless you can safely get across without drivers modifying their speed and direction. As a defensive cyclist and pedestrian, I think this is generally prudent.

Where I used to live in Annandale, that “Virginia standard” could have meant waiting 30 minutes to cross the street headed towards a crossing over LRT to get to a bus stop (there was also a signaled intersection a quarter mile further down, but no sidewalk on the side I would have had to walk on). It may work in Arlington (or in Alexandria) but there are places in NoVa where it does not.

[Judd]

Based on all of this discussion, I think the only prudent thing to do is ban all cars.

[scoot]

@DismalScientist 177555 wrote:

I think the Virginia standard is to not enter the street unless you can safely get across without drivers modifying their speed and direction.

Although my pedestrian experience makes evident that quite a few honking drivers believe that to be the standard, ACPD’s crosswalk enforcement stings indicate otherwise. Pedestrians at unsignalized crosswalks must allow an alert driver reasonable time to react but are not required to wait all day for a long gap between vehicles or to scurry across just to avoid delaying any drivers.

[mstone]

@scoot 177561 wrote:

Pedestrians at unsignalized crosswalks must allow an alert driver reasonable time to react but are not required to wait all day for a long gap between vehicles or to scurry across just to avoid delaying any drivers.

but, if you get hit, it will be your fault. I’d be much happier with a “stop” standard, but try to get that through the general assembly.

[dasgeh]

@DismalScientist 177555 wrote:

I view that as more of the standard under DC law. It assumes that drivers are paying attention. I think the Virginia standard is to not enter the street unless you can safely get across without drivers modifying their speed and direction. As a defensive cyclist and pedestrian, I think this is generally prudent.

While this is practically the way to minimize your chance of being hit, that doesn’t make any sense as the standard in the law, because it would negate the part of the law that requires drivers to yield.

[dasgeh]

@mstone 177565 wrote:

but, if you get hit, it will be your fault. I’d be much happier with a “stop” standard, but try to get that through the general assembly.

The yield v. stop is not what opens the door to assigning fault to the pedestrian — it’s the “in disregard of approaching traffic” part

[ImaCynic]

@dasgeh 177597 wrote:

The yield v. stop is not what opens the door to assigning fault to the pedestrian — it’s the “in disregard of approaching traffic” part

But isn’t that a self-correcting problem? Besides, there’s probably a good reason why this line is there.

[Sunyata]

@f148vr 177602 wrote:

But isn’t that a self-correcting problem? Besides, there’s probably a good reason why this line is there.

The reason why that line is there is to prevent pedestrians from stepping off a curb into a street when a car is 20 yards away and does not have time to react appropriately. See the below definition for yield (grabbed from the VA DMV website):

You must slow down as you come to the intersection. Be prepared to stop. Let any vehicles, pedestrians, or bicyclists safely pass before you proceed.

This means that as a driver, I can slow my speed to allow the pedestrian to cross versus coming to a complete stop. As a pedestrian, that means that I can cross when I give approaching vehicles adequate time to slow or stop before reaching the crosswalk. That does NOT mean that a pedestrian can dash into the crosswalk when a vehicle is 20 yards away traveling at 40 mph. It also does not mean that a pedestrian would be found at fault if s/he crosses when a vehicle has adequate stopping/slowing distance but is distracted and does not react appropriately.

[mstone]

@dasgeh 177597 wrote:

The yield v. stop is not what opens the door to assigning fault to the pedestrian — it’s the “in disregard of approaching traffic” part

With no stop standard, there’s no practical reason for a driver to even slow down since the “yield” requirement only applies if the pedestrian is in front of the car, and the yield requirement can be met by changing speed, changing lanes, etc. When can a pedestrian ever be sure that the driver will actually yield in the absence of a stop? If you can’t be sure that the driver will actually yield, you’re “disregarding”, right? The only way you can really tell if it’s safe to cross is if 1) there are no cars or 2) the car in the single traffic lane is stopped. Without a stop standard, the law basically just gives pedestrians the finger.

[Author]

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