suggestions for where to live? (bike commuting to the hill and family friendly area)

[baiskeli]

@lordofthemark 98693 wrote:

Hong Kong, Singapore and Arlington all have contested elections. Hong Kong, IIUC, has a strong role for a body selected by less than the whole population that vetts election outcomes, and limits complete democracy. Singapore does not.

Singapore is in theory, IIUC, a complete democracy. In fact it has had the same ruling party since independence almost 40 years ago. Some people hold that this just shows they do a good job, and people are happy with it. Some consider it a sign of a political culture of deference, and of the govt dominating the political discourse (though they do have a free press) that is inconsistent with a fully democratic political culture. IIRC Freedom House, which ranks countries on political rights, always took points off for “one party dominant” countries that had only had one political party winning since independence (way back in the 1970s that included India and Israel, but both had opposition victories shortly after that – IIUC Singapore still has not)

Arlington’s period of Democratic (large D) dominance has been shorter than Singapore’s period of one party dominance – and one of the Dems on the Arlco Bd is clearly “in opposition” despite being a D – and there has been an independent (formerly a Republican) on the Board since the Spring. So Arlco is not as much one party dominant as Singapore, but I can see the point of the parallel.

Good points.

I don’t think one-party domination alone is a legitimate way to judge freedom. The reasons for that domination have to be examined. In the case of Singapore, the election process and campaigning are both regulated by the government, which is controlled by that party.

Also, as I said before, party is hardly the only determinant of governance. The Democratic Party in Virginia is a whole lot different from the one 40 or 50 years ago, for instance, and in the case of Arlington, Libby Garvey proves that party doesn’t determine how one thinks or acts about everything.

Whatever foreign countries or cities you compare Arlington with, we are still Arlington, and we are governed by the U.S. Constitution and U.S. political norms. We have very free and fair elections, free speech, etc.

[mstone]

How bout you fly to Singapore or Hong Kong and try to publish a newspaper criticizing the government and calling for a new system based on completely free, democratic principles. After you’re out of jail we can continue to talk about how oppressed Arlington Republicans are.

[sjclaeys]

@mstone 98706 wrote:

How bout you fly to Singapore or Hong Kong and try to publish a newspaper criticizing the government and calling for a new system based on completely free, democratic principles. After you’re out of jail we can continue to talk about how oppressed Arlington Republicans are.

Double bingo!

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 98706 wrote:

How bout you fly to Singapore or Hong Kong and try to publish a newspaper criticizing the government and calling for a new system based on completely free, democratic principles. After you’re out of jail we can continue to talk about how oppressed Arlington Republicans are.

I don’t think Arl GOP are oppressed. But govt dominance of the press is exercised somewhat more subtly in Singapore than simply jailing people. http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-singapore

To return to topic – the most active opponent of the consensus of the County board in recent years, though a Democrat, is Libby Garvey, who happens to be a cyclist.

[mstone]

@lordofthemark 98787 wrote:

I don’t think Arl GOP are oppressed. But govt dominance of the press is exercised somewhat more subtly in Singapore than simply jailing people. http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-singapore

Uh huh. It’s subtle except when it doesn’t involve a high profile person with international attention. But please, try my proposed experiment and let us know what happens.

[Brendan von Buckingham]

@mstone 98792 wrote:

But please, try my proposed experiment and let us know what happens.

http://youtu.be/4F4qzPbcFiA

Go ahead. Click the link. You know you want to. You’re a suburban cyclist risk taker. You can take take this one little bit more of risk. You’re a risk junky. Click it click it click it click it click it click it.

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 98792 wrote:

Uh huh. It’s subtle except when it doesn’t involve a high profile person with international attention. But please, try my proposed experiment and let us know what happens.

I will need the plane ticket to Singapore, and some funding for the paper. And some cash to help with the likely defamation lawsuit.

Note, googling on reporters jailed, Singapore, as well as looking at reporters without borders, indicates on clear cut case in the last 5 years. Alan Sheldrake. Who was hit with a criminal defamation lawsuit and jailed for over 5 weeks. While that was inexcusable, I would note they got him for attacking the judiciary in particular. Its not clear if an attack on the govt itself that did mention the judiciary would have been punished as harshly.

So, yeah, subtle. They dominate the press without masses of jailed reporters (or shot reporters, like in Russia)

[baiskeli]

@lordofthemark 98822 wrote:

I will need the plane ticket to Singapore, and some funding for the paper. And some cash to help with the likely defamation lawsuit.

Lawsuit? No, you’re going to prison.

Note, googling on reporters jailed, Singapore, as well as looking at reporters without borders, indicates on clear cut case in the last 5 years. Alan Sheldrake. Who was hit with a criminal defamation lawsuit and jailed for over 5 weeks. While that was inexcusable, I would note they got him for attacking the judiciary in particular. Its not clear if an attack on the govt itself that did mention the judiciary would have been punished as harshly.

There are more cases though:

http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-singapore (relevant passage posted below – probably illegal to do that in Singapore too)

So, yeah, subtle. They dominate the press without masses of jailed reporters (or shot reporters, like in Russia)

That’s not the least bit subtle. You can go to jail for speaking your mind in Singapore. You don’t need masses of jailed reporters – jail or fine a few and the rest will get the message.

From link above:

Singapore’s constitution guarantees rights to freedom of expression, peaceful assembly, and association. However, it also permits broadly interpreted restrictions not only for security, public order, and morality, but also for parliamentary privilege and racial and religious harmony. These restrictions facilitate censorship of broadcast and electronic media, films, video, music, sound recordings, and computer games. The Newspaper and Printing Presses Act requires yearly renewal of registration and allows government officials to limit circulation of foreign newspapers they deem “engage in the domestic politics of Singapore.” Two corporations dominate the media in Singapore. MediaCorp is wholly owned by a government investment company; Singapore Press Holdings Limited (SPH) is a private company, but the government must approve and can remove shareholders, who have the authority to hire and fire all directors and staff. Although Singapore loosened some limitations on free speech, association, and assembly in mid-March 2011, it maintained or tightened other restrictions. Blogs, podcasts, and social networking sites were permitted to be used for internet election advertising as long as they did not contain recorded messages that were “dramatized” or “out of context.” Candidates were also required to announce within 12 hours of the start of campaigning all new media content they planned to use.

Government officials continue to maintain that religious and ethnic differences have “the potential to cause friction and divide Singaporeans” and therefore necessitate restrictions on free speech. Outdoor gatherings of five or more persons require police permits.

On December 10, 2010, police refused to grant Singaporeans for Democracy (SFD) a permit to hold an International Human Rights Day parade. In February 2011 Chee Soon Juan, secretary general of the Singapore Democratic Party, paid a heavy fine for “speaking without a permit” during the 2006 general election campaign to avoid a prison term of 20 weeks.

In January 2011 the government ordered The Online Citizen (TOC), a popular blog site, to register as a political association. According to the Prime Minister’s Office, “TOC has the potential to influence the opinions of their readership and shape political outcomes in Singapore. It has been gazetted to ensure that it is not funded by foreign elements or sources.”

A police investigation is underway to determine if a SFD invitation-only event in September 2011 should be considered a public event held without a permit. The Public Order Act 2009 mandates that permits for indoor assemblies are needed if, as was the case here, all speakers are not citizens of Singapore. Police raised concerns that invitations issued through a Facebook events page and by email compromised the forum’s private status.

Police were also investigating a public forum of former Internal Security Act detainees organized by the opposition Singapore Democracy Party (SDP) in September. According to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the SDP “arranged for a fugitive from justice, Francis Seow [speaking online from Boston], and a foreign national, Ms. Tang Fong Harr [speaking from Hong Kong] to participate in a discussion on Singapore’s domestic politics.”

All associations of 10 or more members must seek approval, which can be denied by the Registrar of Societies if deemed “prejudicial to public peace, welfare or good order.”

Singapore also resorts to charges of contempt of court, criminal and civil defamation, and sedition to rein in its critics. On June 1, 2011, British author Alan Shadrake began serving a six-week prison term for contempt of court for “scandalizing the judiciary” by alleging in his book, Once a Jolly Hangman: Singapore Justice in the Dock, that Singapore’s justice system permits interference by the People’s Action Party with court decisions relating to capital punishment. At his trial, the prosecution cited 11 specific statements, including the book title, to argue that Shadrake’s allegations and insinuations “muzzle confidence in the courts’ impartiality, integrity and independence.” Shadrake was immediately deported upon release.

[baiskeli]

So there you go, rose_surfer — you should cross Singapore and Hong Kong off your list.

[baiskeli]

P.S. the poor, oppressed people of Arlington bravely managed to rise up and elect a Republican (running as an independent) yesterday. Perhaps he will be jailed and caned though.

[lordofthemark]

@baiskeli 98828 wrote:

Lawsuit? No, you’re going to prison.

On December 10, 2010, police refused to grant Singaporeans for Democracy (SFD) a permit to hold an International Human Rights Day parade. In February 2011 Chee Soon Juan, secretary general of the Singapore Democratic Party, paid a heavy fine for “speaking without a permit” during the 2006 general election campaign to avoid a prison term of 20 weeks.

Singapore is not a model of a free press. But I see no examples of someone being jailed (rather than fined) for press reports in the last 5 years other than Sheldrake. Or of people being shot (as in Russia)

See this
http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2014/singapore-0 and note Freedom House ranks them at 9 (with 16 the worst) on freedom of expression.

Note of particular relevance to the one party dominance, “Although editorials and news coverage generally support state policies, newspapers occasionally publish critical pieces. Mainstream media offered more balanced coverage of the opposition ahead of the 2011 elections. “

They are no Arlington, but there are far worse in the world.

[baiskeli]

@lordofthemark 98834 wrote:

Singapore is not a model of a free press. But I see no examples of someone being jailed (rather than fined) for press reports in the last 5 years other than Sheldrake. Or of people being shot (as in Russia)

There are no reports of reporters being jailed in North Korea either. You don’t have to jail or shoot people to oppress them – only threaten to.

Freedom House ranks them at 9 (with 16 the worst) on freedom of expression.

There you go. 9 is pretty bad, even if its not 16.

They are no Arlington, but there are far worse in the world.

Which brings us back on topic: Arlington, which has a very free and fair political system.

[lordofthemark]

@baiskeli 98835 wrote:

There are no reports of reporters being jailed in North Korea either. You don’t have to jail or shoot people to oppress them – only threaten to.

There you go. 9 is pretty bad, even if its not 16.

Which brings us back on topic: Arlington, which has a very free and fair political system.

There are massive numbers of people imprisoned for political crimes in North Korea, in absolutely horrible conditions.

[baiskeli]

@lordofthemark 98838 wrote:

There are massive numbers of people imprisoned for political crimes in North Korea, in absolutely horrible conditions.

Not many were reporters working for private North Korean media outlets though – because there are no private North Korean media outlets. My point is that you can’t say that because there are no reporters in jail, a country has a free press.

[creadinger]

@rose_surfer 97890 wrote:

Any suggestions of where we should be looking to live? So far, I’ve been checking out N. Arlington/East Falls Church (a little expensive), Alexandria (looks like some of the public elementary schools) are hit and miss, Bethesda, and silver spring.

The Mount Vernon Community School in Del Ray is a pretty darn good school form what I hear. All the neighbor kids go there. It’s also bi-lingual, so your kids would learn Spanish as well as English. I’m not sure if it’s public or private though? We don’t have kids so I don’t know much about the school system.

Actually, thinking about it. There are SO many darn kids in our northern Alexandria neighborhood I don’t think we need any more, so maybe you should focus on Arlington, where you want to go anyway.

[Author]

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