Stop signs at crosswalks. Do you yield to cars?

[theakston]

@StopMeansStop 5993 wrote:

It was at a designated crossing, which like the trails have STOP signs for the trail users. The problem is that drivers either don’t realize the pedestrians are required to wait, or they want to be nice and allow them to cross. While I applaud their civility to their fellow man, they are really making the situation far more dangerous.

No good deed goes unpunished….

There is a lot of confusion over these signs. I personally think that the Stop signs need to be removed. Traffic is supposed to yield to pedestrians in (or attempting to enter) the crosswalk. From what I was told the Stop signs (which usually are combined with a “Dismount” sign – the ones on the GWParkway do) are to instruct the cyclists to stop and dismount at which time they are to be treated as a pedestrian and have the right of way.
There is clearly a need to clarify this set of laws. And to enforce them. People are getting hurt and killed too often.

[americancyclo]

@JimF22003 6016 wrote:

1) if it’s clear, I’m going through
2) if it’s not clear, I’m getting ready to stop
3) if a car is going through properly by not yielding, I come to a complete, full, and metaphysical halt.
4) if a car is going to yield (out of politeness, or fear, or wanting to preserve their paint job by not having a cyclist broadside them), then I am going to give a little nod or wave of appreciation, and go on through.

Cheers to you sir!

[theakston]

Here is another quote from the law regarding crossings for those that seem to think that the car has the right of way unless the pedestrian is alwady in the crosswalk:

C. The governing body of Arlington County, Fairfax County, the City of Fairfax, the County of Loudoun and any town therein, and the City of Alexandria, may by ordinance provide for the installation and maintenance of highway signs at marked crosswalks specifically requiring operators of motor vehicles, at the locations where such signs are installed, to yield the right-of-way to pedestrians crossing or attempting to cross the highway. Any operator of a motor vehicle who fails at such locations to yield the right-of-way to pedestrians as required by such signs shall be guilty of a traffic infraction punishable by a fine of no less than $100 or more than $500. The Commonwealth Transportation Board shall develop criteria for the design, location, and installation of such signs. The provisions of this section shall not apply to any limited access highway.

[StopMeansStop]

theaskton (welcome to the board!)

I never saw section C, however the pedestrians still have to obey the stop signs on trails, which still requires them to yield right of way.

With regards to crosswalks in NOVA as you mentioned above, Arlington has quite a few of these signs already which say something like “yield to pedestrians within crosswalk”. I’ve never seen one saying “yield to pedestrians attempting to cross”. Maybe they exist. But it sounds like the county has the authority to post such signs if they wish.

[Jsnyd]

@StopMeansStop 6000 wrote:

I couldn’t agree anymore. Where did you take the WOD?

I started in Arlington. I think I parked on Four Mile Run Rd, 50yrds short of what I believe to be the start and turned around in Herndon at the rest stop. There and back came out to just over 43 miles. Luckily I started early enough to get off the trail by 10:30am, it was getting hot (this was Monday). I wanted to go further but I figured the distance I covered my first time on the trail was decent. Plus I only had a banana left and was saving that for the way back. I saw a few of the trouble spots I have read about here. At the time I didnt see huge problems but I also understand I was on the trail with probably the least activity of the day. Ill be back out tomorrow morning to hit the other half (or a good chunk of it) and eventually tie those two halfs together one of these days.

[StopMeansStop]

Nice. The start is actually in Shrlington. Try and park there and when you finish your ride, get a half smoke from the Weenie Beenie. Puts Bens to shame.

[Bruce Wright]

Americancyclo has it right; cyclists are treated as pedestrians when in a crosswalk. The W&OD stop signs complicate the road crossings. There are almost no other places where there is a stop sign before a crosswalk.

StopMeansStop said “The NVRPA Stop signs (at least the ones in Shirlington) say they are “required by law” so I’m assuming that there is some code behind them and thus enforceable.” The W&OD trail stop signs are not VDOT signs. They were placed by NVRPA. The “enforced by law” only means that NVRPA has the authority to put stop signs in their parks. There was a case a while back in which a cyclist was struck in a crosswalk at Belmont Ridge Rd in Loudoun Co. The cyclist was ticketed for not waiting for all traffic to clear because he had a stop sign. I believe he was ticketed under VA code “46.2-821. Vehicles before entering certain highways shall stop or yield right-of-way.” The cyclist fought it in court and the case was dismissed. The judge ruled that the cyclist was on a trail and could not be ticketed under the statute because he was not on a “highway” or “road”

There are many places were trails intersect roads and there are crosswalks across the road and there are no stop signs. VA code is pretty clear; we can’t enter the crosswalk in disregard of oncoming traffic, but once in the crosswalk motorists must yield (if they have sufficient time to yield assuming the cyclists didn’t enter in disregard of oncoming traffic).

It is very discouraging to hear that cyclists are still waving motorists on when they stop at a crosswalk. Some of us who have been herr for many years know that in the past motorists often didn’t stop. In some places if we wait until all traffic has cleared, it would be a long wait. We do need to be careful when crossing. My mantra is “one lane at a time.” Never assume that if one motorist has stopped, others will also stop.

[PotomacCyclist]

There have been ongoing discussions about the STOP signs on the W&OD on The WashCycle. I got the impression that those signs should not be there. They confuse the heck out of everyone involved. Some cyclists stop. Some don’t. Some car drivers stop. Some don’t.

Even though I know that I “probably” have right of way, I still stop at the sign, simply because I know there’s a good chance that the next driver to come along is not aware of the laws, doesn’t care about the laws or is too distracted to know that there’s a trail crossing. It can be frustrating when a well-meaning car driver stops to let cyclists pass, but cyclists can’t see around that car to check if there is still fast car traffic in the adjacent lane. I will give such drivers a friendly wave to acknowledge them. If I can manage to peek around and see that the other lane is clear, then I’ll cross in the crosswalk. But if there are no good sight lines, then I’ll wave the car on.

Re the women who was killed at the GW Parkway crossing, she was stopped on the trail. The car driver stopped to let her pass. Another driver behind the stopped car swerved out of the way and ended up causing the crash that killed the cyclist. The cyclist did nothing wrong.

All of those grade crossings south of the Memorial Bridge are dangerous in general. Given that crash, I now sit back a bit from the edge of the road if I’m waiting there. I’m not going to take any chances. I’ll hold back about 10 feet more than I would otherwise. The problem with that crosswalk is that it’s very difficult to tell if cars are turning onto that ramp or continuing onto the main road. That section of the trail needs to be re-designed somehow. A bike/pedestrian bridge would be ideal, but expensive. Because of the jumble of on and off ramps, it’s not easy to find a good spot to place a grade crossing. But there are a lot of smart people in the area. Someone has to be able to figure out a cost-effective solution over there. Anyone have some spare cash that they’d like to donate toward building a bike/pedestrian bridge? Please?

[americancyclo]

@Bruce Wright 6029 wrote:

There are many places were trails intersect roads and there are crosswalks across the road and there are no stop signs. VA code is pretty clear; we can’t enter the crosswalk in disregard of oncoming traffic, but once in the crosswalk motorists must yield (if they have sufficient time to yield assuming the cyclists didn’t enter in disregard of oncoming traffic).

Thanks for weighing in Bruce. In your experience with WABA and FABB, have you ever seen anyone dispute the term ‘ in disregard of oncoming traffic’? I think I know what it means, but I wonder if it’s a personal, subjective feeling, rather than an objective measurable distance/quality.

[napes]

Bruce Wright is spot-on, in my opinion. Despite widespread confusion about it, the Virginia Code says that drivers shall yield to bicycle riders and pedestrians at crosswalks and at most intersections, unless there is some traffic control device or law enforcement person directing traffic otherwise. At lights, the bicycle rider/pedestrian has to follow the standard light signals, but the bicycle rider and pedestrian has right of way at all other crosswalks (regardless of traffic speed) and at intersections without signals (if the speed is less than 35 mph).

A crosswalk area includes the bit at the side of the road where the pedestrian/bicylist is as he begins to cross the intersection. See http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+coh+46.2-100 The law, by the way, talks about “at” crosswalks, not “in” crosswalks.

The main reason there are stop signs on trails when they cross intersections is to slow down the bicycle traffic enough to give the car drivers enough safe time to yield to them.

Anyway, here is the Virginia Code:

§ 46.2-904. Use of roller skates and skateboards on sidewalks and shared-use paths; operation of bicycles, electric power-assisted bicycles, and electric personal assistive mobility devices on sidewalks and crosswalks and shared-use paths; local ordinances.

A person riding a bicycle, electric personal assistive mobility device, or an electric powerassisted bicycle on a sidewalk, shared-use path, or across a roadway on a crosswalk, shall have all the rights and duties of a pedestrian under the same circumstances.

§ 46.2-924. Drivers to stop for pedestrians; installation of certain signs; penalty.

A. The driver of any vehicle on a highway shall yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian crossing such highway:

1. At any clearly marked crosswalk, whether at mid-block or at the end of any block;
2. At any regular pedestrian crossing included in the prolongation of the lateral boundary lines of the adjacent sidewalk at the end of a block;
3. At any intersection when the driver is approaching on a highway or street where the legal maximum speed does not exceed 35 miles per hour.

B. Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection A of this section, at intersections or crosswalks where the movement of traffic is being regulated by law-enforcement officers or traffic control devices, the driver shall yield according to the direction of the law-enforcement officer or device.

No pedestrian shall enter or cross an intersection in disregard of approaching traffic.

The drivers of vehicles entering, crossing, or turning at intersections shall change their course, slow down, or stop if necessary to permit pedestrians to cross such intersections safely and expeditiously.

Pedestrians crossing highways at intersections shall at all times have the right-of-way over vehicles making turns into the highways being crossed by the pedestrians.

break-break

At a crosswalk Virginia courts have held “the pedestrian has a superior right — that is, the right to cross from one side of the street to the other in preference or priority over vehicles — and drivers of vehicles must respect this right and yield the right of way to the pedestrian. The pedestrian’s right of way extends from one side of the street to the other. It does not begin at any particular point in the intersection nor does it end at any particular point. It begins on one side of the street and extends until the pedestrian has negotiated the crossing.” (Marshall v. Shaw. Supreme Court of Virginia, 1955) http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=2476417758289562501&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr

“The duty of a motor vehicle driver on approaching an intersection is to keep a vigilant lookout for pedestrians between curbs on the traveled portion of the highway, and when pedestrians are negotiating the crossing, or about to step from the side into traffic lanes, to operate his car at such speed and under such control that he can readily turn one way or the other, and, if necessary, bring his machine to a stop in time to avoid injury to pedestrians.” (Sawyer v. Blankenship, Supreme Court of Virginia, 1933) http://va.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.19330615_0040113.VA.htm/qx

None of this, naturally gives the pedestrian/bicyclist the right to jump in front of traffic too close to stop. The police will probably only interview the driver in such a case. Please be careful out there, especially on roads with two lanes each direction.

[StopMeansStop]

@napes 6044 wrote:

The law, by the way, talks about “at” crosswalks, not “in” crosswalks.

“Crosswalk” means that part of a roadway at an intersection included within the connections of the lateral lines of the sidewalks on opposite sides of the highway measured from the curbs or, in the absence of curbs, from the edges of the traversable roadway; or any portion of a roadway at an intersection or elsewhere distinctly indicated for pedestrian crossing by lines or other markings on the surface.

By definition, a crosswalk is part of the roadway. You are either in the crosswalk or you’re not.

@napes 6044 wrote:

The main reason there are stop signs on trails when they cross intersections is to slow down the bicycle traffic enough to give the car drivers enough safe time to yield to them.

INAL, but that is drawing an inference as to the intent of the law. One could easily suggest that stop signs are at crossings to help prevent users from “entering without disregard” and ensure safety.

“The duty of a motor vehicle driver on approaching an intersection is to keep a vigilant lookout for pedestrians between curbs on the traveled portion of the highway, and when pedestrians are negotiating the crossing, or about to step from the side into traffic lanes, to operate his car at such speed and under such control that he can readily turn one way or the other, and, if necessary, bring his machine to a stop in time to avoid injury to pedestrians.”

Absolutely!! When you’re driving a two ton bullet (ok, 1.5 tons nowadays) you should always be in control of your car and aware of the situation and react accordingly. Just because a car may have right-of-way does not negate their responsibility to be prepared to stop!

As a cyclist, I’m very appreciate to drivers who yield and give them a nice thank-you wave. As a driver I will yield if I think it doesn’t create an unsafe situation for the pedestrians.

But just because the driver has a duty to be vigilant does not mean that drivers are required to yield right of way to pedestrians outside a crosswalk unless there is signage requiring the driver to do so. There seems to be a mindset for some that cars always have to yield to pedestrians waiting to cross, which is just not true.

@PC — The GW accident was horrible. IIRC the jogger that was killed (not a cyclist) wasn’t even crossing and was several feet outside of the crosswalk. The fault lies with both of the drivers, the one stopping suddenly and the one who lost control.

[txgoonie]

So in the case of the GW Parkway, we are to read that drivers are indeed supposed to yield the right of way to pedestrians wanting to cross at the crosswalks? I understand the burden of drivers to watch for pedestrians and keep safe distance, but doesn’t this feel like a rather uncommonly unsafe situation for drivers? GW Parkway is a highway. It doesn’t have lights/intersections. People are generally not prepared to come to a dead stop on that road. If a crosswalk is placed on a road like that don’t you feel like a large flashing sign a mile beforehand stating “BE PREPARED TO STOP” and several reminders beforehand would really be required, not the modest little signs they have AT the crosswalk? They do it in the case of high-speed roads that have traffic lights – why not for crosswalks?

[StopMeansStop]

@txgoonie

As you can tell there is a difference of opinion about this. My advice on the GW is to not stop for people waiting to cross, and be prepared for someone else to pull a bonehead move and slam on their brakes.

[Mark Blacknell]

The speed limit on the road approaching the crossing where the jogger was killed is 25 mph. If the NPS Police spent less time in speed traps on the pedestrian-free north end of the Parkway, and more time enforcing the speed limits down where it really matters to safety, we’d have a better Parkway.

[theakston]

@StopMeansStop 6077 wrote:

@txgoonie

As you can tell there is a difference of opinion about this. My advice on the GW is to not stop for people waiting to cross, and be prepared for someone else to pull a bonehead move and slam on their brakes.

By “Bonehead move” you mean being courteous and obeying the law. It’s the speeding and tailgating that is the bonehead move. Drivers should be prepared to stop. Problem is the speed even if they stuck to the posted limit 40MPH is probably too fast for that section between all the bridges where there are multiple crosswalks.

[Author]

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