Salt Treatment for Snow on the Trails?

[chris_s]

@DismalScientist 104203 wrote:

Why doesn’t NVRPA just pay Dominion to put a plow blade on the maintenance truck that went up and down the WOD between Columbia Pike and the Custis yesterday? Or how about contracting with Arlington County so that that part of the WOD could be cleared with or without pretreatment?

NVRPA is concerned about the wear and tear on the trail from plows. They prefer to snowblow.

[baiskeli]

@lordofthemark 104198 wrote:

Again, because I came late – are we mainly talking about Four Mile Run from Shirlington upstream to I66? Because otherwise I can’t think of any major transportation trails in NoVa that are inside stream buffers. 4MRT downstream from Shirlington, surely thats not considered a stream buffer. Custis trail is not even along a stream mostly. MVT is along the Potomac, but the Potomac is not buffered. GCCCT in Fairfax ix surely not salted, and most small stream valley trails are not.

Yeah, that sounds about right, except 4MRT downstream of Shirlington would be a concern too since it’s so close to the water yet has no real buffer zone, which is even worse. I don’t know, I haven’t looked at this carefully.

[baiskeli]

@Vicegrip 104212 wrote:

We need to have bike paths and bike lanes that can be counted on. If we have safe reliable avenues to travel on then more will use them for commuting. This is key to getting people out of cars and into a healthy for human and planet way of getting around.

I agree.

The amount or chloride used is agrain in a bucket given the overall watershed.

As I’ve said several times, it’s not about how much, it’s about where it is applied.

As for your comments about overuse of salt in general, I couldn’t agree more.

[baiskeli]

@mstone 104204 wrote:

For someone with no position who also wants no unsupported claims, you seem to be repeating an unsubstantiated position that consists of the following assertions:

1) ice melting chemicals are a major (non-trivial/non-ignorable) pollutant in 4MR
2) the park along the 4MR is designed to be a buffer zone to mitigate such pollutants
3) there are no other sources of ice melting chemicals in the park (that is, this is “new”)

1 – not making any such claim
2 – this is not a claim, it is a fact, unless you are specifying pollutants – I make no claim that salt is specifically one of the pollutants that buffers are designed to mitigate
3 – not making this claim

If that is your position, why don’t you substantiate it?

It’s not. So now back to your claims, which you didn’t back up.

I didn’t make claims, I asked questions. You jumped in and said I was wrong before I even had something to be wrong about.

If you really don’t have a position and aren’t interested in doing any research into the question, why keep bringing up the same points and ignoring the points raised by others?

I didn’t come here to argue a point, I came here to express a concern. If you want to try to convince me with good facts that my concern isn’t anything to worry about, fine. You haven’t yet. Just saying “you’re wrong” isn’t adequate.

[baiskeli]

@chris_s 104237 wrote:

NVRPA is concerned about the wear and tear on the trail from plows. They prefer to snowblow.

Hmmm. So NVRPA has thought a little deeper about the impact of plowing and decided there is a better way? That’s interesting. Who would be so crazy as to ask questions and dig deeper and consider all the effects of plowing and dare to suggest that we even think about this issue and how we might clear the trails better?

Oh, yeah, that’s me on this thread.

[baiskeli]

@Steve O 104200 wrote:

Disagree. If it’s sent out immediately at the end of the storm, that’s usually soon enough to beat the major packing down. And it’s much, much faster and hence cheaper. Just this week, with a broom I was able to sweep my sidewalk, front walk and stairs in about 90 seconds while the snow was still light and powdery. At the end of the day, after it had been walked on, it would have taken chemical treatment plus a lot more time.
I think we actually saw that very thing with the Custis this storm. They were out there during and just after the storm, and the trail is looking great. If they had waited until today to start work, it would be either impossible, or highly chemical- and time-intensive, hence more expensive.

And then I even question your, “But that probably wouldn’t be practical.” Why is it practical to run full-sized snowplows all over the place for the duration of storms on roads for cars, but not practical to do the same thing on the car-less roads (i.e., trails)?

Hey, if it can work, I’m all for it. I hadn’t thought of snowblowing, which is what chris_s noted is NRPRA’s preference. It probably depends on the kind of snow and time of day but I’m all ears.

BTW, like plows, salt damages the trail surface and bridges through corrosion, which is another concern.

[Vicegrip]

@baiskeli 104245 wrote:

Hey, if it can work, I’m all for it. I hadn’t thought of snowblowing, which is what chris_s noted is NRPRA’s preference. It probably depends on the kind of snow and time of day but I’m all ears.

BTW, like plows, salt damages the trail surface and bridges through corrosion, which is another concern.

Tell them that rotary brush is even better than blowing. Brush can get to bare pavement with no damage to the surface or transitions. Snow blowers can only get close and have problems with transitions. To get clean you often need to follow with melter. Plows can cause damage at transitions and vice verse. Plow blow brush or shovel cant remove bonded frozen material. That is where the melters should only be deployed. Melters cause damage from misuse or overuse. Done right the melter only breaks the bond between the ice / packed snow and pavement. At that point it becomes dilute and is mostly removed from the treated surface as the detached material is plowed or shoveled off. This is the done right format. The how most do it format is kill it with chloride way. A little or a lot The chloride still exists dilute or not and ends up in runoff water at some point. We need to use less. We can use less but it will involve making people change how they earn their money and what we all expect when it snows. Everywhere not just the. 00002% of treated tarmac yardage that is dedicated mup.

[americancyclo]

@americancyclo 103915 wrote:

I sent them this note:

Subject:
Parks and Recreation

Message:
Thanks for salting the trails last night and plowing them this morning. I rode in from Falls Church, and it made a huge difference when i caught up with the plowed section of the Custis Trail near Ballston. The ride was much quicker and felt safer. I caught up to and passed the plow at the Italian Store, and it was obvious how much the trail plowing helped, since I was immediately plunged in to two inches of snow on the trail and my speed dropped drastically along with my traction.

Thanks again, y’all rock and I’m looking forward to a safe commute home by bike on clear trails!
-Shawn Gallagher
americancyclo on the bikearlingtonforum.com

@dasgeh 103932 wrote:

Well done. Thanks! We may consider showing thanks to the County Board (and County Manager) as well — our lobbying to get this done had to go all the way up to them, and it was their nod that made this happen.

@dasgeh 103953 wrote:

Of course:

Board: countyboard@arlingtonva.us
or individually: mhynes@arlingtonva.us (current chair)
jfisette@arlingtonva.us (last year’s chair – helpful in this effort)
wtejada@arlingtonva.us (also helpful in this effort)
lgarvey@arlingtonva.us
jvihstadt@arlingtonva.us

Manager: countymanager@arlingtonva.us

The County Manager’s Office wrote back:

Dear Mr Cyclo,

Thank you for sharing the news of how the plowed bike trails worked for you during the recent storm. It’s always nice to hear good news.
I’ve shared your email with the County Manager’s office so she can share with staff.
Thanks again, and have a safe winter,
Mary Hynes
Chair, Arlington County Board
Sincerely,

[americancyclo]

@baiskeli 104243 wrote:

Oh, yeah, that’s me on this thread.

you’re an XC Skier, aren’t you? :p

[ShawnoftheDread]

Did she really call you Mr. Cyclo?

[americancyclo]

@ShawnoftheDread 104359 wrote:

Did she really call you Mr. Cyclo?

Nah, i just suck at redacting

[baiskeli]

@americancyclo 104353 wrote:

you’re an XC Skier, aren’t you? :p

You’re a cyclist, aren’t you? 😎

[americancyclo]

@baiskeli 104855 wrote:

You’re a cyclist, aren’t you? 😎

Actually both.

[KWL]

The equine may have succumbed, but doesn’t the amount of chemicals dumped on TR parking lot negate the GW Parkways folks’ argument that clearing snow from the MVT would be bad for sensitive environmental areas? The parking lot is closer to the Potomac than the trail at this point. That’s a big pile of sodium/calcium/magnesium chloride there.

[peterw_diy]

Is Alexandria City salting the MVT in its borders? The amount of salt on MVT between Pendleton and Canal/First is crazy.

[Author]

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