Question about Leading Pedestrian Intervals

[Kolohe]

In my experience, almost everyone that intends to turn right creeps a bit to the right anyway, so filtering to the left is, for me at least, not that big of a deal. Plus, the no turn on red keeps traffic still which makes filtering much easier. (being close alongside a line of vehicles that’s moving up in the queue erratically as people make legitimate right turns on red is the scariest thing to me about city biking – because of the sudden unpredictable movement of a car within a few inches of your handlebars, and the haphazard use of turn signals).

Jumping off a bit before normally clears me out of the desire path for right-turning vehicles, so I don’t feel like I’m ‘cutting’ in line either, or otherwise holding up traffic.

[Emm]

Can you safely filter right? I have 2 similar turns on my commute, and usually on a red light I can cut to the right and pass them, and then wait at the intersection for the crosswalk signal to change so I can cross ahead of the cars moving.

This is only safe is you know how long is left on the light though–in my commute I can usually see the lights from far back, or due to light timing, I roll up to it just as it’s turning red so I know I have time. I never do this if I’m unsure about timing, or if a car has blocked my ability to filter right.

[lordofthemark]

@Kolohe 113660 wrote:

In my experience, almost everyone that intends to turn right creeps a bit to the right anyway, so filtering to the left is, for me at least, not that big of a deal. Plus, the no turn on red keeps traffic still which makes filtering much easier. (being close alongside a line of vehicles that’s moving up in the queue erratically as people make legitimate right turns on red is the scariest thing to me about city biking – because of the sudden unpredictable movement of a car within a few inches of your handlebars, and the haphazard use of turn signals).

Jumping off a bit before normally clears me out of the desire path for right-turning vehicles, so I don’t feel like I’m ‘cutting’ in line either, or otherwise holding up traffic.

See that is the thing – the LPI is short, and by the time I get to the front of the line, the light may have changed to green, which allow not only the right lane car to turn right, but the left lane car to turn left, so movement on both sides of me – plus if there is more than one car in line on the right, the second car may be heading straight through, and not turning. This all assumes everyone is signalling, which, well…

[Crickey7]

I tend to filter between the lanes. I find that you have more room than you think.

[Kolohe]

@lordofthemark 113664 wrote:

See that is the thing – the LPI is short, and by the time I get to the front of the line, the light may have changed to green, which allow not only the right lane car to turn right, but the left lane car to turn left, so movement on both sides of me – plus if there is more than one car in line on the right, the second car may be heading straight through, and not turning. This all assumes everyone is signalling, which, well…

I suppose I’ll just echo what Emm said about timing. LPI’s are always short, but do you pass through there regularly enough to get a feel for how long the red in your direction is? (that’s when I would filter, and cut back in line if you’re running out of time.) Can you see the cross street per countdown timer from enough distance to determine how long you have?

At the end of the day, I would just do whatever’s comfortable and be patient. I myself am fairly conservative in my city biking, if judging by the riders around me. (e.g. I’ll stop for all red ped signals going southbound on the 15th st cycle track, even at Rhode Island and at Mass, even if I don’t see left turning traffic coming at me).

[Steve O]

@lordofthemark 113656 wrote:

But I have a question about a slightly different situation. When I am proceeding on New Jersey Avenue SE northbound from Tingey to Eye Street, I always take the lane. The light across M Street can be quite long. There are two lanes northbound. One is left turn only, one is right turn/straight through, with no turn on red between 7AM and 7PM. That means I often find myself in line behind a car waiting to turn right – and even though I have the legal right to proceed through on the LPI, I cannot because I am waiting for the car ahead to turn. I am reluctant to filter to the left of such cars, both because I generally find that move uncomfortable (and sometimes there is little room) but also because I am not sure the motorists will understand what I am doing, and I fear they may react unpredictably.

Do others encounter this? What do you do?

I use all of the above strategies; it’s totally contextual. It’s helpful that you are familiar with the signals, so that you can be more intelligent about your move. Being assertive, so that drivers can tell what you are doing (even if they may not like it), makes you safer.

Cars that are standing still cannot harm you (well, doors, but that’s different), so even a skinny space is navigable.

If the car ahead has their right turn signal on–or it’s apparent they are turning right by their positioning, wheel position, etc.–I will almost always filter left, because to them it will not create any sort of (imaginary) conflict. Also, if the light changes, then we each move along without getting in each other’s way.

If it appears they are going straight, I will filter right, and then take the imaginary bike box in front of them (unless that impedes peds). That keeps them from doing any creeping or any other stupid moves.

If I’m unsure of the timing or it’s all about to change, then I will just stay in the lane in line and sacrifice the LPI for another day.

If the light changes while filtering, use your arm signal, be assertive, take the center of the lane and stay in line until you can safely navigate into the bike lane or a different lane or wherever it is you may want to be. Or keep the lane if that is where you want to be.

[americancyclo]

@lordofthemark 113656 wrote:

I often find myself in line behind a car waiting to turn right I am reluctant to filter to the left of such cars

I would never filter to the right of a car that ‘may’ be turning right. I always filter to the left because i don’t want to be right hooked.

I do this often at Independence and 15th SW. If the car is going straight, I slow down and slip behind them in the lane.

[Terpfan]

@lordofthemark 113656 wrote:

In DC (anywhere else in the region?) many intersections have leading pedestrian intervals. IE the pedestrian signal turns to walk while the main traffic signals remain red in all directions. The idea is to give pedestrians more time to cross, but IIUC people on bikes are legally allowed to proceed on the walk signal in DC even if they are not riding on the sidewalk. I do this regularly when riding in either direction on the Eye Street SW bike lanes, and it is a very serviceable (and legal) substitute for Idahoing those lights, which I do NOT do.

But I have a question about a slightly different situation. When I am proceeding on New Jersey Avenue SE northbound from Tingey to Eye Street, I always take the lane. The light across M Street can be quite long. There are two lanes northbound. One is left turn only, one is right turn/straight through, with no turn on red between 7AM and 7PM. That means I often find myself in line behind a car waiting to turn right – and even though I have the legal right to proceed through on the LPI, I cannot because I am waiting for the car ahead to turn. I am reluctant to filter to the left of such cars, both because I generally find that move uncomfortable (and sometimes there is little room) but also because I am not sure the motorists will understand what I am doing, and I fear they may react unpredictably.

Do others encounter this? What do you do?

What’s interesting was I thought it was cyclists are only using the crosswalk signals when indicated, but you’re right, we’re always allowed to use the leading indicator:

§ 50–2201.04d. Bicyclists’ use of leading pedestrian intervals.

(a) A bicyclist may cross at an intersection while following the pedestrian traffic control signal for the bicyclist’s direction of travel unless otherwise directed by traffic signs or traffic control devices.
(b) A bicyclist may cross an intersection where a leading pedestrian interval is used.

As for your broader question, my filtering versus not filtering is entirely contextually-based. If I feel it’s easy to do and I’m confident in what the vehicle is doing (indicated by signals, tire direction, etc) then I will cautiously do it. But I always presume that a driver will suddenly change his or her mind and jut back in my direction based on multiple experiences with tourists doing just that very thing.

[Brendan von Buckingham]

What I would do, in order of preference: 1. Filter left, 2. wait behind car, 3. Filter right. I never filter between a car and a curb. The car might accommodate me and wiggle over. A curb never will. If cars center themselves in their lane, giving for example 4 feet on either side, filtering between cars gives me an 8 foot space. Filtering along a curb only give me 4 feet.

What a DC cop has told me to do: In a similar situation on H Street, I Idahoed 15th (OK, not exactly an LPI situation, but…). At midblock, an undercover cop car paced me and yelled at me that if I want to go through a red, I have to use the crosswalk, literally shift my line to the zebra and then back to the roadway when I’m done crossing. An odd interpretation to say the least.

[dasgeh]

@Terpfan 113765 wrote:

§ 50–2201.04d. Bicyclists’ use of leading pedestrian intervals.

(a) A bicyclist may cross at an intersection while following the pedestrian traffic control signal for the bicyclist’s direction of travel unless otherwise directed by traffic signs or traffic control devices.
(b) A bicyclist may cross an intersection where a leading pedestrian interval is used.

Interesting wording. There’s a light on Penn. (9th?) where there’s an LPI, and the timing of the next light to the east is pretty short. When this was my commute, I’d have to jump the green traffic light and pedal as hard as possible to make the second light. I always thought bikes in the cycletrack were not allowed to follow the LPI because there’s a sign pointing to the traffic light and indicating bikes should follow it. I wonder if you could argue otherwise….

@Brendan von Buckingham 113780 wrote:

What a DC cop has told me to do: In a similar situation on H Street, I Idahoed 15th (OK, not exactly an LPI situation, but…). At midblock, an undercover cop car paced me and yelled at me that if I want to go through a red, I have to use the crosswalk, literally shift my line to the zebra and then back to the roadway when I’m done crossing. An odd interpretation to say the least.

I believe that if you run a red in a travel lane, you’re a vehicle who has run a red. If you run a red in a crosswalk, you’re a pedestrian who has jaywalked. Which would you rather have a ticket for (not that you should run reds, but if you do).

[ShawnoftheDread]

@Brendan von Buckingham 113780 wrote:

What I would do, in order of preference: 1. Filter left, 2. wait behind car, 3. Filter right. I never filter between a car and a curb. The car might accommodate me and wiggle over. A curb never will. If cars center themselves in their lane, giving for example 4 feet on either side, filtering between cars gives me an 8 foot space. Filtering along a curb only give me 4 feet.

What a DC cop has told me to do: In a similar situation on H Street, I Idahoed 15th (OK, not exactly an LPI situation, but…). At midblock, an undercover cop car paced me and yelled at me that if I want to go through a red, I have to use the crosswalk, literally shift my line to the zebra and then back to the roadway when I’m done crossing. An odd interpretation to say the least.

Then what was the point of passing a specific law for this? We could always use the LPI if we were using the crosswalk, because the LPI is for the crosswalk.

[dasgeh]

@ShawnoftheDread 113796 wrote:

Then what was the point of passing a specific law for this? We could always use the LPI if we were using the crosswalk, because the LPI is for the crosswalk.

Because now you can use the LPI without swerving over to the crosswalk. Especially helpful when there are turn lanes.

[ShawnoftheDread]

@dasgeh 113808 wrote:

Because now you can use the LPI without swerving over to the crosswalk. Especially helpful when there are turn lanes.

Not according to Brendan’s post above, per his interaction with DC’s finest, which is what my question was addressing.

[Brendan von Buckingham]

I’m taking the meta view on this: this group here are the only people who know the bicycle code and consider it in their actions (not necessarily abide, but consider). Not even the cops know the code like we do. So be as precise and right with the code as you want, but understand, any numbnuts with a badge can mess it up anyway.

[dasgeh]

@ShawnoftheDread 113812 wrote:

Not according to Brendan’s post above, per his interaction with DC’s finest, which is what my question was addressing.

Brendan said he was running a red, not with an LPI.

[Author]

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