Prius Haters Abound

[dbb]

@jabberwocky 59137 wrote:

I personally don’t care what anyone drives, I just get really annoyed by people who give me crap for what I drive. I had a coworker at my old job who was a hard core environmentalist who constantly berated me for my turbo subaru. I (I thought reasonably) pointed out that I almost always rode a bike to work, and drove less than 5k miles per year, which means that even if she was in a Prius I was consuming way less gas than her, and the response was “well, its the image of the thing”.

I had a similar conversation with my girlfriend when I replaced the subaru with an older Explorer (14mpg woo!). I did the math and even with her Prius C, I still burn way less gas than her in a year because I hardly ever drive. “Its the image though, it sends the wrong message”. Sigh…

Good point. My 1994 Ford Ranger pickup gets crappy mileage (17-20) but few miles. I drove it under 1000 miles last year. My big expenses are insurance and the occasional repair. I gassed it up last in March and it still has 3/8 of a tank.

While it is pretty non-green when used, it is pretty green when parked. And it is fully amortized! If I were forced to start driving again, it would be replaced with something more efficient in a flash.

[lordofthemark]

@ShawnoftheDread 59135 wrote:

No it doesn’t. If they’re both overstated, then the difference between the two is probably the same.

it depends if they are overstated by the same absolute MPG, or by the same percentage. I assume that the overstatement due to differential driving style is the same, percentagewise, for different vehicles. OTOH that might be less true for hybrid vs conventional than say for two conventional vehicles of different sizes. That really gets into details of what the differences are (excess idling? Accelerating too sharply? Sharp braking?) and how that relates to the way hybrids work.

[lordofthemark]

@jabberwocky 59137 wrote:

I personally don’t care what anyone drives, I just get really annoyed by people who give me crap for what I drive. I had a coworker at my old job who was a hard core environmentalist who constantly berated me for my turbo subaru. I (I thought reasonably) pointed out that I almost always rode a bike to work, and drove less than 5k miles per year, which means that even if she was in a Prius I was consuming way less gas than her, and the response was “well, its the image of the thing”.

I had a similar conversation with my girlfriend when I replaced the subaru with an older Explorer (14mpg woo!). I did the math and even with her Prius C, I still burn way less gas than her in a year because I hardly ever drive. “Its the image though, it sends the wrong message”. Sigh…

Bikes have pretty good image. And living close to work, is like what all the cool kids do these days right?

Jerks are jerks whatever they drive or do. There are jerks who want to make people feel bad for not driving a low MPG car – just as there jerks who want to make people feel bad for driving an old car, or for not moving to the “better” school district, or make women feel bad for working, or for not working, or for not breast feeding, or whatever.

I personally think whatever people do to reduce GHG emissions -whether its biking, living closer to work, driving a hybrid, eating less rede meat, or being careful to turn off their computer off at the end of the day, is a good thing. But even defining green actions most broadly, being a jerk about it probably isn’t the best way to achieve change.

[mstone]

@lordofthemark 59133 wrote:

the MPG are estimated by the EPA, not the car companies, so selling points have nothing to do with it. My assumption is that the reason my personal observed MPG is less than the EPA rating, is due to the rating being based on some ideal conditions, not how I (and the other drivers in my household) actually drive.

Yes, that would make them overstated for both. Assuming its equally overstated, that means the number of miles to get to 1500 gallons is less than it is assuming the EPA estimates are correct.

So instead of ten years, say nine years. Which is still a long time. We decided NOT to buy a hybrid – we probably drive at least that much but thats largely highway miles, since we drive to NYC to see family a lot. And I personally do not have a high confidence that gas will go north of $4 a gallon. And while I am willing and eager to do something to avoid emissions/make a statement/whathaveyou faced with buying a new car, I wasn’t willing to pay that much of a premium to do so.

But my point is that it was not THAT far off. For someone who drove much more than we do – whose miles were more commuting and less long drives to NYC – who DID beleive that gas north of 4 is in the offing – the numbers could be positive. and if not positive, the premium for being ecofriendly could be smalller.

Is ANY sacrifice for the greenness pretentious? Maybe we should stop going to the trouble of recycling marginal items and just dump in the trash instead. The trouble is small (though my wife DOES like to rinse them off first) but its not zero. My wife insists on it. I want to bike where I can IN PART for the benefit to the planet, however small. I also want to move someplace thats more attuned to a less driving focused lifestyle than where we are now. Some people prefer to drive a Prius. No sweat off my back, and some benefit. Whats to be resentful for? If people spending money to make a statement bothered me so much, I don’t know how I could leave the front door in the land of BMWs, SUVs, and McMansions with driveway gates.

I don’t understand why you’re being so defensive here. You’re the one who decided you were pretentious. All I said was that buying a new prius is generally a statement, not a rational economic decision. I made no claim that this is a bad thing and didn’t suggest any judgement–if that’s what you want to do with your money, bully for you.

And for what it’s worth, I’ve been able to exceed the epa mileage on every car I’ve owned except the minivan. Probably too much extra weight.

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 59165 wrote:

I don’t understand why you’re being so defensive here. You’re the one who decided you were pretentious. All I said was that buying a new prius is generally a statement, not a rational economic decision. I made no claim that this is a bad thing and didn’t suggest any judgement–if that’s what you want to do with your money, bully for you.

And for what it’s worth, I’ve been able to exceed the epa mileage on every car I’ve owned except the minivan. Probably too much extra weight.

there have been refernces to prius drivers as smug and wealthy

You imply that either the savings on gas gets a good ROI on the incremental purchase cost, or its “a statement”. You may not have stated that making a statement is a bad thing, but there are certainly lots of people around here who think thats something negative. You also seem to have excluded the possibility that some people pay an economic premium not to make a statement, but to reduce their GHG emissions. Is it a more public way to do so than buying GHG credits? I suppose. Some people give to charity anonymously, and some want their name on the building. Does that mean they dont genuinely care about the charity? I dont think so.

Why am I defensive, even though I do not own a hybrid? Because it seems to me that the last few years a lot of people have been trying to take a lot of different steps to be more “green” – from choices in what they eat, to what they drive, to using alternatives to driving, to where and in what size unit they live in, to how they dispose of their trash, and each and every one has gotten push back as hypocritical, pretentious, preachy, etc, etc. And one of the memes used in that pushback is the assumption that everything is done for oneself, or to “make a statement” and that there are no authentically altruistic actions (at least not by environmentalists) And I’m tired of that, frankly. I think this attempt to “think globally and act locally” should be applauded.

the rational economic decision, for society, whould be to price carbon (and as we learn more about likely feedback loops, the higher the rational price is looking to be). That some individuals get utility from the optimal societal outcome, to the point that they will effectively shadow price that carbon that our dysfunctional political system is unwilling to price, is again, a good thing, not only not a bad thing, but not a neutral thing.

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 59165 wrote:

You’re the one who decided you were pretentious..

excuse me? I not only did not say hybrid drivers were pretentious (though I did read that into others comments) I never said I drive a hybrid. In fact I said that I drive a conventionally fueled compact, which I do.

[mstone]

I can’t imagine how negative stereotypes about people who just want to lower their emissions could possibly get started.

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 59181 wrote:

I can’t imagine how negative stereotypes about people who just want to lower their emissions could possibly get started.

1. Some of them could actually be jerks and say rude things to other people

2. Some people might feel guilty and react even if the person said nothing rude. People can be like that.

3. There can be an organized campaign to demonize environmentalism.

Its possible all three might blend in society, leading to negative stereotypes.

There are lots of sources of negative stereotypes – whether about racial and religious groups, or even about modes of transportation.

[mstone]

No, that ain’t it.

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