Prius Haters Abound

[lordofthemark]

@dasgeh 59031 wrote:

My problem with hybrids is that people use them to justify driving more. Driving more has negative externalities beyond emissions. I just saw a great article on the cost of congestion… now where was it?

Not irrational – just as its cheaper to drive our Civic to NYC than if we had a Hummer, which would incent us to take the Bolt Bus – heck it would even make the Acela look cheap, I guess. But is it wise to buy a Hummer to incent oneself to drive less? and to move more directly to Pelzmans law, is it wise to not wear a helmet, to incent oneself to ride more carefully?

BTW, I met Sam Pelzman, and he’s a real nice guy.

[sjclaeys]

@lordofthemark 59032 wrote:

“The missing wheel covers, a couple cigarette burns on the interior”

there are Prius drivers who SMOKE?

Oh yeah, and that throw their cigarette butts out of the window. Seen it with my own two eyes.

[mstone]

@jabberwocky 59022 wrote:

I tried Toyotas website, but even adding all the crazy options (seriously, theres a “performance package” for the Prius?!) I couldn’t get the MSRP that high. Even at 30k though, the Prius is far from a crazy expensive car. I mean, I don’t see a Ford Explorer or a BMW 3 series (similarly priced cars) and think “that person must be rich”.

Try harder, add options like remote start and fancy wheels. (I think if I bought a car to be eco-concsious and then added an option to idle the car to run the A/C while nobody was in it, the cognitive dissonance would make my head explode; I suspect that’s a popular $500 option, though.) Someone who’s really trying to save money is going to buy a yaris or a kia rio or something like that (probably used). They might spend $1000/yr more on gas, but the prius is never going to make a case for itself on economic terms except in extremely unusual circumstances. If your response is “well, everybody I know has a car that costs more than that,” well, you’ve been in the DC area too long. Is it a luxury car? No, of course, not–but it is a car for someone with enough extra money to make a statement, and there are a lot of people in this world who don’t have extra money to make a statement. There’s also been a good bit of “buying down”, but I suspect that trend is ending now that actual luxury cars come with hybrid options and a person can make a statement without giving up the creature comforts. It’ll take a few years for the perceptions of that trend to die off.

[mstone]

@JeffC 58933 wrote:

Second, at least in VA, we reward smug wealthy people that can afford a new Prius the right to drive on HOV lanes alone. HOV lanes should be about rewarding people to car pool not rewarding wealthy people who can afford a new car. Moreover, on the freeway, the Prius is engaging the gas engine so burning about the same amount of fuel as other compact cars. Even though I obviously ride my bike to work many days, while riding on the Custis and when I do take the Orange Line, I see plenty of selfish Prius drivers alone and afraid to car pool doing nothing more for the environment than a solitary driver in a compact Ford or Honda would.

What always pissed me off about that was that about 10 years ago when I ran into this issue, I was between a hybrid and a diesel. At highway speeds the diesel got better mileage (still does), and in stop and go traffic it’s kinda meh. The hybrids were just about the opposite–they exceled at stop and go driving and were kinda meh at highway speed. (They’ve gotten better, but still do better in stop and go where they can turn off and use regenerative braking, and don’t need as much constant power.) And then we got a government incentive that takes the vehicle that does better at stop-n-go and puts it in the fast lane, and takes the vehicle that excels at constant high-speed travel and puts it in stop-n-go. Take the potential to push incentives for clean diesels with sustainable biodiesel (something that could actually make an impact in commercial transport emissions) over the fiasco of corn-based ethanol and you have one of history’s lost opportunities.

[ShawnoftheDread]

I had a nice encounter with a Prius driver crossing the beltway on LRT heading home. He got a nod and I got a thumbs up.

[Rod Smith]

Sounds like you all are as reluctant to admit hybrid cars are superior to what you drive as to admit hybrid bicycles are superior to what you ride.

[ShawnoftheDread]

@lordofthemark 59029 wrote:

http://automobiles.honda.com/shop/civics.aspx?kwid=15043480&adgrpid=375486540&ef_id=HeFPoXDnfgwAAFr9:20130724211527:s

a base model Honda Civic Sedan is 18k and change. A Honda Civic Sedan Hybrid is 24k and change.

Thats 6k.

I mean people buy bikes that cost more than 6k, right?

Depending on how much you drive and how you drive, its not out of the question that you can justify the incremental 6k. Especially if you think gas prices are going to increase. and even more if you add a small amount to your personal cost benefit for the emissions difference.

Right, $6000 more to get an mpg improvement of 16 miles city and 8 miles highway. Assuming equal city and highway driving, the hybrid gets 12 miles to the gallon more. It’s going to take quite awhile to make up for $6k, which is 1500 gallons of gas at $4 per gallon.

[lordofthemark]

@ShawnoftheDread 59048 wrote:

Right, $6000 more to get an mpg improvement of 16 miles city and 8 miles highway. Assuming equal city and highway driving, the hybrid gets 12 miles to the gallon more. It’s going to take quite awhile to make up for $6k, which is 1500 gallons of gas at $4 per gallon.

12 miles a gallon vs an average of less than 34 for the conventionally fueled car. Lets just say one third. so you save 1500 gallons over the time you would burn 4500. Thats about 150,00 miles.

Plus of course some folk do more than 50% of their miles in “city” driving. so the numbers are better for them. And some people expect the price of gasoline to go over $4 in the near future (of course the latest Va transport bill shifting the cost of building roads from gas taxes to sales taxes changed incentives a bit for those who live in NoVa).

Oh and a dirty little secret. My Civic does NOT get the mileage that is on the sticker. Maybe if I ran it on an EPA test track or whatever it would. That means that the number of miles to get to 1500 gallons is somewhat less than one would expect using the sticker MPG numbers.

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 59040 wrote:

? No, of course, not–but it is a car for someone with enough extra money to make a statement, and there are a lot of people in this world who don’t have extra money to make a statement..

there are a lot of people in this world who don’t have the money to buy a latte, or to have a second bathroom in their house, or to send their kids to soccer camp, or to have an HD car stereo. Or you know, to own several different bikes for different possible rides.

Why are things spent for ones own personal pleasure okay, but things spent to make this particular kind of statement obnoxioux? And how does one know its about a statement, and not about actually trying to reduce emissions? Just as I dont know if someone who buys a BMW is doing so for the engineering, or to make statement about their wealth. Whether someone buying a Mcmansion really uses all those rooms, or is trying to make a statement. At least the person making a statement with the Prius, IS lowering their emissions versus driving the same miles with a similar conventionally fueled vehicle.

I DO agree that it does not make sense to give them superior rights to HOV lanes though. I think the problem is not just that vehicles are grandfathered in, but that the special fuel tags are transferable, IIUC.

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 59040 wrote:

If your response is “well, everybody I know has a car that costs more than that,” well, you’ve been in the DC area too long.

There are lots of SUVs, minivans, luxury sedans, etc sold in places other than the DC area.

There are a lot of families, with two drivers, that feel the need for a third car. “well, what will I do when one is in the shop?”

[ShawnoftheDread]

@lordofthemark 59092 wrote:

12 miles a gallon vs an average of less than 34 for the conventionally fueled car. Lets just say one third. so you save 1500 gallons over the time you would burn 4500. Thats about 150,00 miles.

Plus of course some folk do more than 50% of their miles in “city” driving. so the numbers are better for them. And some people expect the price of gasoline to go over $4 in the near future (of course the latest Va transport bill shifting the cost of building roads from gas taxes to sales taxes changed incentives a bit for those who live in NoVa).

Oh and a dirty little secret. My Civic does NOT get the mileage that is on the sticker. Maybe if I ran it on an EPA test track or whatever it would. That means that the number of miles to get to 1500 gallons is somewhat less than one would expect using the sticker MPG numbers.

It would take most people about 10 years to go that 150,000 miles.

I was noting the sticker MPG for both. I see no reason to believe that the sticker would be overstated for a Civic but not overstated for a Civic hybrid. In fact, I’d expect the hybrid’s sticker to be more likely to be overstated, since gas savings is one of its selling points.

[jabberwocky]

@ShawnoftheDread 59128 wrote:

I was noting the sticker MPG for both. I see no reason to believe that the sticker would be overstated for a Civic but not overstated for a Civic hybrid. In fact, I’d expect the hybrid’s sticker to be more likely to be overstated, since gas savings is one of its selling points.

The EPA doesn’t screw around with manufacturers lying about gas mileage. Hyundai and Kia both got smacked down recently for overstating gas mileage. The issue is that their standard testing assumes a certain driving style, whereas people in the real world vary a lot and driving style has a huge influence on mileage. IME, most people get lower mileage than the sticker unless they are very careful drivers.

Top Gear did a test a while back where they sent a Prius around their track as fast as possible for several laps, and had someone follow it in a BMW M3 going the exact same speed. Then they tested how much gas each burned. The found the Prius actually burned more gas than the BMW, because the Prius was being thrashed while the BMW was hardly working.

I can get the mileage in my GFs Prius C down in the mid-30s pretty easily. You just have to floor it a lot. I don’t know if shrieking at it for being a slow piece of s**t affects mileage, but I tend to do that a lot too.

[lordofthemark]

@ShawnoftheDread 59128 wrote:

It would take most people about 10 years to go that 150,000 miles.

I was noting the sticker MPG for both. I see no reason to believe that the sticker would be overstated for a Civic but not overstated for a Civic hybrid. In fact, I’d expect the hybrid’s sticker to be more likely to be overstated, since gas savings is one of its selling points.

the MPG are estimated by the EPA, not the car companies, so selling points have nothing to do with it. My assumption is that the reason my personal observed MPG is less than the EPA rating, is due to the rating being based on some ideal conditions, not how I (and the other drivers in my household) actually drive.

Yes, that would make them overstated for both. Assuming its equally overstated, that means the number of miles to get to 1500 gallons is less than it is assuming the EPA estimates are correct.

So instead of ten years, say nine years. Which is still a long time. We decided NOT to buy a hybrid – we probably drive at least that much but thats largely highway miles, since we drive to NYC to see family a lot. And I personally do not have a high confidence that gas will go north of $4 a gallon. And while I am willing and eager to do something to avoid emissions/make a statement/whathaveyou faced with buying a new car, I wasn’t willing to pay that much of a premium to do so.

But my point is that it was not THAT far off. For someone who drove much more than we do – whose miles were more commuting and less long drives to NYC – who DID beleive that gas north of 4 is in the offing – the numbers could be positive. and if not positive, the premium for being ecofriendly could be smalller.

Is ANY sacrifice for the greenness pretentious? Maybe we should stop going to the trouble of recycling marginal items and just dump in the trash instead. The trouble is small (though my wife DOES like to rinse them off first) but its not zero. My wife insists on it. I want to bike where I can IN PART for the benefit to the planet, however small. I also want to move someplace thats more attuned to a less driving focused lifestyle than where we are now. Some people prefer to drive a Prius. No sweat off my back, and some benefit. Whats to be resentful for? If people spending money to make a statement bothered me so much, I don’t know how I could leave the front door in the land of BMWs, SUVs, and McMansions with driveway gates.

[ShawnoftheDread]

@lordofthemark 59133 wrote:

Yes, that would make them overstated for both. Assuming its equally overstated, that means the number of miles to get to 1500 gallons is less than it is assuming the EPA estimates are correct.

No it doesn’t. If they’re both overstated, then the difference between the two is probably the same.

[jabberwocky]

@lordofthemark 59133 wrote:

Is ANY sacrifice for the greenness pretentious?

I personally don’t care what anyone drives, I just get really annoyed by people who give me crap for what I drive. I had a coworker at my old job who was a hard core environmentalist who constantly berated me for my turbo subaru. I (I thought reasonably) pointed out that I almost always rode a bike to work, and drove less than 5k miles per year, which means that even if she was in a Prius I was consuming way less gas than her, and the response was “well, its the image of the thing”.

I had a similar conversation with my girlfriend when I replaced the subaru with an older Explorer (14mpg woo!). I did the math and even with her Prius C, I still burn way less gas than her in a year because I hardly ever drive. “Its the image though, it sends the wrong message”. Sigh…

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