On E-Bikes…

[runbike]

@Tim Kelley 122260 wrote:

Interesting–you went right from not biking at all to ebiking? What convinced you to do so? (I.E. what marketing campaign/argument worked on you?)

With a commute of 5 miles and 25 minutes that’s an average of 12 mph? Do you have a heavy cargo load, or lot of stop signs/stop lights that slow you down? I’d be curious about your ride time on the traditional bike when you start doing that.

Honestly I can’t remember all of the details, but I do remember being fed up with metrobus and thinking that there had to be a better way (driving was definitely not an option – same traffic, more expense). I had long thought about biking, but didn’t want to trade metrobus time for standing-in-shower-line time at the office and somewhere in my researching I came across e-bikes. So I found a well-reviewed model (Stromer ST1 Elite) and took the leap. 2+ years later and I haven’t looked back. I wasn’t exactly a stranger to two-wheeled transportation either, having done a lot of road biking in college and also riding a motorcycle for several years until my wife strongly suggested I cut that nonsense out

Slight correction – when I first started bike commuting my total ride each way was 7 miles. I moved offices after a few months after I started and it dropped to 5 miles each way. Looking at my data log I tend to average around the high 16’s to low 17’s in terms of mph speed. I too am definitely interested in seeing what my numbers are once I start riding a traditional bike.

[Tim Kelley]

@GovernorSilver 122261 wrote:

Again, look at somebody riding a pedal-assist e-bike at 27 mph vs. a regular bike at 27 mph. You seem to believe there would be a difference in reaction time and braking between the two, even though the speed is exactly the same. Is this based on your experience riding a pedal-assist e-bike? Note that I never mentioned the type of e-bike that looks like and apparently works just like a moped.

Having ridden a pedal-assist e-bike myself, I am not so convinced there would be a difference. You should try a pedal-assist e-bike yourself if you truly want to know what level of control you can expect.

I think you’ve missed what we were talking about or are you trolling me?

Two things you skipped over in not reading this thread closely enough:
-I just spent all of last week riding a pedal-assist bike around Arlington.
-According to federal regulation, pedal-assist bikes are limited to a top speed of 20mph–above that the assistance cuts out and to go faster you must pedal it yourself.

I believe there is a difference in reaction time and braking of a inexperienced rider when riding on a pedal-assist bike at 20mph compared to riding on a pedal-assist bike at 15mph.

[Tim Kelley]

@run/bike 122263 wrote:

Honestly I can’t remember all of the details, but I do remember being fed up with metrobus and thinking that there had to be a better way (driving was definitely not an option – same traffic, more expense). I had long thought about biking, but didn’t want to trade metrobus time for standing-in-shower-line time at the office and somewhere in my researching I came across e-bikes. So I found a well-reviewed model (Stromer ST1 Elite) and took the leap. 2+ years later and I haven’t looked back. I wasn’t exactly a stranger to two-wheeled transportation either, having done a lot of road biking in college and also riding a motorcycle for several years until my wife strongly suggested I cut that nonsense out

Slight correction – when I first started bike commuting my total ride each way was 7 miles. I moved offices after a few months after I started and it dropped to 5 miles each way. Looking at my data log I tend to average around the high 16’s to low 17’s in terms of mph speed. I too am definitely interested in seeing what my numbers are once I start riding a traditional bike.

Thanks for sharing–so it’s a huge time saver for you and getting to the office without sweating is paramount?

Back to my 15mph vs 20mph cut off thought: if you averaged 14mph instead of 17mph over 5 miles–for a difference of roughly 4 minutes, would that dissuade you riding?

How many miles do you get out of the Stromer between charges?

[Steve O]

@Tim Kelley 122239 wrote:

Steve, at what speed do you think that the assistance should be governed?

I do not think there should be a speed at which it should be governed any more than there should be a speed at which you or I, riding our bikes downhill with a tailwind, should be “governed.” Our speed is governed by conditions and safety–using our brains (well, and our legs) as the governor. Sometimes traveling 12 mph is too fast and sometimes traveling 25 mph is too slow. Riding recklessly or without care for other road or trail users should be independent of whether we happen to have assistance–whether from the wind or gravity–or an electric motor.

Despite what we read in the Missed Connections thread, the majority of people are able to pilot their cars safely despite the fact that virtually all of them are capable of going more than 90 mph and many much faster. We do not “govern” their speed with technology, yet somehow these cars with hugely varying engine sizes are able to co-exist on the same roads.

[GovernorSilver]

@Tim Kelley 122264 wrote:

I think you’ve missed what we were talking about or are you trolling me?

Two things you skipped over in not reading this thread closely enough:
-I just spent all of last week riding a pedal-assist bike around Arlington.

Ok, I missed this part. Sorry about that.

A troll would not attend WABA happy hours, knowing he’ll have to face the music for anything he says in the forums, from fellow forumites. I’m just expressing a different experience, riding a pedal-assist bike than yours.

@Tim Kelley 122264 wrote:

-According to federal regulation, pedal-assist bikes are limited to a top speed of 20mph–above that the assistance cuts out and to go faster you must pedal it yourself.

I believe there is a difference in reaction time and braking of a inexperienced rider when riding on a pedal-assist bike at 20mph compared to riding on a pedal-assist bike at 15mph.

Ah, that’s why you were hung up on the 27 mph.

I agree that an inexperienced rider (I take it you mean inexperienced at riding any bicycle – electric or not) would have compromised reaction and braking time riding an e-bike at 20 mph vs. 15 mph. But how about said inexperienced rider on a regular road bike at 20 mph vs. an electric bike at 20 mph? So far, you have yet to explain as to how riding an e-bike at 20 mph is any different from riding a regular bike at 20 mph when it comes to reaction time and braking.

[Tim Kelley]

@Steve O 122266 wrote:

I do not think there should be a speed at which it should be governed any more than there should be a speed at which you or I, riding our bikes downhill with a tailwind, should be “governed.” Our speed is governed by conditions and safety–using our brains (well, and our legs) as the governor. Sometimes traveling 12 mph is too fast and sometimes traveling 25 mph is too slow. Riding recklessly or without care for other road or trail users should be independent of whether we happen to have assistance–whether from the wind or gravity–or an electric motor.

Despite what we read in the Missed Connections thread, the majority of people are able to pilot their cars safely despite the fact that virtually all of them are capable of going more than 90 mph and many much faster. We do not “govern” their speed with technology, yet somehow these cars with hugely varying engine sizes are able to co-exist on the same roads.

Wait, what? Speed isn’t governed?

[chris_s]

@GovernorSilver 122267 wrote:

But how about said inexperienced rider on a regular road bike at 20 mph vs. an electric bike at 20 mph? This is the comparison that you have avoided so far.

Well other than the e-bike probably stopping more slowly because of the weight of the motor and battery, they’d certainly be the same. I think the point is it’s easier to get up to 20mph on an e-bike.

[Tim Kelley]

@GovernorSilver 122267 wrote:

But how about said inexperienced rider on a regular road bike at 20 mph vs. an electric bike at 20 mph?

Many/most inexperienced riders would find it difficult to maintain a speed of 20mph for a significant period of time, simply from a fitness point of view. I would expect that 15mph is still pretty snappy for most of the population. (For example, Google Maps uses 10-12mph when calculating expected ride time) Fitness comes with more experience.

[Steve O]

@Steve O 122266 wrote:

We do not “govern” their speed with technology,

@Tim Kelley 122268 wrote:

Wait, what? Speed isn’t governed?

Not with technology. As I stated, we use our brains to govern our speed. That includes taking note of any laws, although I understand a lot of people driving cars do not particularly care about these signs to govern their speed.

[americancyclo]

@GovernorSilver 122267 wrote:

But how about said inexperienced rider on a regular road bike at 20 mph vs. an electric bike at 20 mph? So far, you have yet to explain as to how riding an e-bike at 20 mph is any different from riding a regular bike at 20 mph when it comes to reaction time and braking.

I think Tim’s position is that an inexperienced rider won’t pedal a standard bike very fast, and is therefore not very dangerous. He assumes that speed and skill will grow together with time.

That same inexperienced rider on a e-bike however, can immediately go 20+mph, and may not have the time in the saddle to control the bike at those speeds.

[dasgeh]

@Tim Kelley 122249 wrote:

But doesn’t faster = harder to control? Or less reaction time available? Or at least longer to slow down and less forgiving to corrections at speed?

Out of curiosity, what is your personal experience with the upper speed limit of your two regular e-bikes? Does the box bike have a governor? Do you hit it regularly? What about the long tail?

To your first question, faster means all of those things regardless of bike. I guess I meant was that I didn’t find it harder to control the speed (at the low end) of an ebike. So yes, while going faster requires more skill, it’s very obvious that going faster is riskier and it’s very easy to slow down to where it’s easier to control. Also, the bikes are heavy, and I find heavier bikes easier to control (ala CaBi) even at higher speeds.

To your second, both are governed to no assist past 20 mph, I think. On the box, I’ve only hit that on downhills. On the midtail, I’ve hit it on some flats if I’m riding alone, but I’ve only known that because I have a display that tells me. I don’t think I could tell from riding alone.

[dasgeh]

@DismalScientist 122251 wrote:

To translate this in to English: People who ride bikes are disproportionately jerks.:rolleyes:

Just people who have been biking for a long time. Since, say… when did you start biking?
(j/k :p)

[GovernorSilver]

@Tim Kelley 122270 wrote:

Many/most inexperienced riders would find it difficult to maintain a speed of 20mph for a significant period of time, simply from a fitness point of view. I would expect that 15mph is still pretty snappy for most of the population. (For example, Google Maps uses 10-12mph when calculating expected ride time) Fitness comes with more experience.

Ok, so what you’re saying is that the beginning rider would be able to accelerate to 20 mph and maintain that speed longer on a pedal-assist bike than on a regular road bike – thus more likely to encounter a situation he/she cannot handle due to not being used to riding at that speed.

Sorry it took me a while to get that.

[runbike]

@Tim Kelley 122265 wrote:

Thanks for sharing–so it’s a huge time saver for you and getting to the office without sweating is paramount?

Back to my 15mph vs 20mph cut off thought: if you averaged 14mph instead of 17mph over 5 miles–for a difference of roughly 4 minutes, would that dissuade you riding?

How many miles do you get out of the Stromer between charges?

Again, hard to say. 20mph is mighty helpful when mixing it up with vehicular traffic and I like the idea of being able to go fast when the trail conditions warrant it, but it’s hard to argue about an overall 4 minute difference.

Stromer can go 20 miles on a charge with the assist turned all the way up. You can stretch it to 40 if you want to work up more of a sweat. There’s also a noticeable drop in power output once the battery drops below 50% charge.

[Steve O]

@run/bike 122276 wrote:

Again, hard to say. 20mph is mighty helpful when mixing it up with vehicular traffic and I like the idea of being able to go fast when the trail conditions warrant it, but it’s hard to argue about an overall 4 minute difference.

4 minutes twice a day for 180 workdays a year is 24 hours of time. Even though it’s in small increments, run/bike might rather have those 24 hours than lose them.

[Author]

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