On E-Bikes…

[Tim Kelley]

@Steve O 122233 wrote:

The exercise argument should not be used. For many of us, the health benefits are a side benefit, not the main benefit of riding for transportation. I don’t care if the e-bike makes Tim Kelley feel soft and lazy, but I do care that an e-bike might get some other soft and lazy person to start using a bike.

Also, someone using an e-bike to go 15-20 miles is probably getting more exercise than I am on my regular bike for my 5-mile commute. Or hills. Or cargo. So one cannot make a blanket statement that an e-bike is somehow “cheating.”

More people on more bikes. Fit ones, lazy ones, old ones, new ones, male ones, female ones, red fish, blue fish.

Wait, what exactly do you think that I’m arguing for/against? That ebikes should be banned? That people who ride them are cheaters? Do you think I’m suggesting that more people on bikes isn’t a good thing? Because I don’t agree with any of those statements. No blanket statements were made: I said that I didn’t feel like I was getting the health benefits I would have (and for me, that’s a big reason to ride).

The e-bike Cheating topic has been beaten to death, and it was a poor descriptor on my part given the sensitivity to that word (that’s Cheating with a capital “C” btw… :p). I use the term in the same way that one might describe the feeling of riding uphill on a lighter frame or into the wind on a set of deep rim carbon aero wheels.

So…getting back on track:

My concern is that I feel like a 20mph cut-off for the pedal-assistance is too high. Gillian admitted that she’s had this thought on the trail but that it seems about right for on the street–I’d like to hear more discussion surrounding this topic. Steve, at what speed do you think that the assistance should be governed?

[Tim Kelley]

@peterw_diy 122234 wrote:

I read that whole thing as

HTFU

which makes me sad.

Explain more please!

[dasgeh]

@Tim Kelley 122223 wrote:

So are you agreeing with me that it feels like cheating for someone who regularly rides without pedal-assist but that there is a place for pedal-assist bikes for people with mobility issues, motivation issues, or no-sweat-ride requirements that wouldn’t otherwise bike?

Fair point: I shouldn’t have said “cheating” in my post. I should have said “if you f you run everywhere you go, walking feels like getting less exercise (because it is)”. I think there’s a place for e-assisted bikes for people who want to ride e-assist bikes for whatever reason. There’s no rule that you have to care about or get maximum health benefits if you ride a bike, so you’re not braking that rule to not care about or get maximum health benefits if you ride a bike.

I admit I am guilty for playing into the cheating argument by pulling out the “but I had to use an ebike because I was 8-months pregnant and toting around 70 lbs of toddlers on the bike”. But honestly, I just use that argument to get people to listen and think outside their bubble. Yes, I rode e-assist when I was pregnant and probably could not have ridden without it. But I rode the e-assist bike today because it’s my first day back at work in a long time and it was one less thing to worry about. I think “because I want to” is just as valid of a reason to ride e-assist as “because I need to”.

[dasgeh]

@Tim Kelley 122225 wrote:

Is there any reservation about putting interested-but-concerned new riders into traffic? That was an argument against Capital Bikeshare that fell flat because of the proven safety record, but then those riders are on bikes that are slow and stable.

Eh. The thing about “interested but concerned” people is that they are concerned. In other words, they are risk adverse. I’ve never found ebikes hard to control, just faster. A risk adverse person is not going to go as fast as they can – they’re going to go as fast as they feel comfortable. So we don’t need to limit the design for them, especially when I do think the extra speed is makes riding safer on the street.

Another way to look at it: most non-risk adverse people who want to ride are already riding. In fact, they’ve been riding for a long time and they blow through red lights and make us all look bad. They do that with or without ebikes. The ebikes empower people not riding to ride. I think there are more non-jerks than jerks not riding, so increasing ridership will dilute the jerk population among those who ride. (edit to add: this is not an ebike point, but it’s something I’ve been trying to put into words for a while. Yay words.)

[Tim Kelley]

@dasgeh 122242 wrote:

Fair point: I shouldn’t have said “cheating” in my post. I should have said “if you f you run everywhere you go, walking feels like getting less exercise (because it is)”. I think there’s a place for e-assisted bikes for people who want to ride e-assist bikes for whatever reason. There’s no rule that you have to care about or get maximum health benefits if you ride a bike, so you’re not braking that rule to not care about or get maximum health benefits if you ride a bike.

I admit I am guilty for playing into the cheating argument by pulling out the “but I had to use an ebike because I was 8-months pregnant and toting around 70 lbs of toddlers on the bike”. But honestly, I just use that argument to get people to listen and think outside their bubble. Yes, I rode e-assist when I was pregnant and probably could not have ridden without it. But I rode the e-assist bike today because it’s my first day back at work in a long time and it was one less thing to worry about. I think “because I want to” is just as valid of a reason to ride e-assist as “because I need to”.

Sure–everyone has their reasons. For me, I’m quite divided on whether or not I would really want to use an pedal-assist long term because the temptation to make it too easy a ride (and reduce the health and fitness benefit) would always be there.

[Tim Kelley]

@dasgeh 122243 wrote:

I’ve never found ebikes hard to control, just faster.

But doesn’t faster = harder to control? Or less reaction time available? Or at least longer to slow down and less forgiving to corrections at speed?

Out of curiosity, what is your personal experience with the upper speed limit of your two regular e-bikes? Does the box bike have a governor? Do you hit it regularly? What about the long tail?

[dasgeh]

@Tim Kelley 122245 wrote:

Sure–everyone has their reasons. For me, I’m quite divided on whether or not I would really want to use an pedal-assist long term because the temptation to make it too easy a ride (and reduce the health and fitness benefit) would always be there.

Sure, that’s a personal choice. I would think the relevant question is: if your options were just traditional bike or not (drive/transit), on days that you’re marginal (“I feel tired/sore/blah/in a rush”), would you bike or not. If you would bike anyways, then having an ebike probably reduces your fitness overall. If you would not bike, but having an ebike means you’ll ride that, then having an ebike increases your fitness overall.

I will add that having eassist on a bike and not using it probably increases your workout. You just have to have the dedication to not use it.

[DismalScientist]

@dasgeh 122243 wrote:

Another way to look at it: most non-risk adverse people who want to ride are already riding. In fact, they’ve been riding for a long time and they blow through red lights and make us all look bad. They do that with or without ebikes. The ebikes empower people not riding to ride. I think there are more non-jerks than jerks not riding, so increasing ridership will dilute the jerk population among those who ride. (edit to add: this is not an ebike point, but it’s something I’ve been trying to put into words for a while. Yay words.)

To translate this in to English: People who ride bikes are disproportionately jerks.:rolleyes:

[runbike]

@Tim Kelley 122249 wrote:

But doesn’t faster = harder to control? Or less reaction time available? Or at least longer to slow down and less forgiving to corrections at speed?

I think these hold true for any bicycle and goes to dasgeh’s point that you should work on regulating bad behavior (aka don’t ride fast where/when it wouldn’t be considered reasonable and prudent).

I ride an e-bike daily and the motor stops giving full boost at 20mph on the dot, although it does give a partial boost so you can cruise on the flats at around 21-22 with moderate pedaling effort. I tend to hit this regularly on my commute on the custis trail, but only in sections where you would reasonably find a semi-fit individual with a road bike doing the same.

[GovernorSilver]

@Tim Kelley 122249 wrote:

But doesn’t faster = harder to control? Or less reaction time available? Or at least longer to slow down and less forgiving to corrections at speed?

I found none of the above to be true on the Trek e-bike that I tried when Spokes Etc. brought a couple of them to Old Town Alexandria’s farmer’s market.

The electric motor on that bike does not pedal for you. You still have to pedal. The motor just provides assistance, so you can go faster than on a normal bike, but that’s about it. I think all the pedal-assist e-bikes work this way.

The effect of speed on reaction time, braking, etc. when cruising at 27 mph on an e-bike should be the same as cruising at 27 mph on a regular road bike.

[Tim Kelley]

@GovernorSilver 122254 wrote:

I found none of the above to be true on the Trek e-bike that I tried when Spokes Etc. brought a couple of them to Old Town Alexandria’s farmer’s market.

The effect of speed on reaction time, braking, etc. when cruising at 27 mph on an e-bike should be the same as cruising at 27 mph on a regular road bike.

I think you missed what we were talking about. You don’t think that going faster allows less reaction time? Or that going faster makes it take longer to slow down? This is in relation to new and inexperienced riders…

I absolutely don’t think that anyone should be able to “cruise” on a e-bike at 27mph. Besides, the original article states that federal regulation is such that the assist cuts out at 20mph.

[Tim Kelley]

@run/bike 122253 wrote:

I ride an e-bike daily and the motor stops giving full boost at 20mph on the dot, although it does give a partial boost so you can cruise on the flats at around 21-22 with moderate pedaling effort. I tend to hit this regularly on my commute on the custis trail, but only in sections where you would reasonably find a semi-fit individual with a road bike doing the same.

Thanks for the input!

A few questions:

Why do you ride an ebike? If you were feeling tired one day, but only owned a traditional bike, would you still ride it?

If your ebike assistance topped out at 15mph instead of 20mph would you stop riding a bike and drive instead?

[runbike]

@Tim Kelley 122257 wrote:

Thanks for the input!

A few questions:

Why do you ride an ebike? If you were feeling tired one day, but only owned a traditional bike, would you still ride it?

If your ebike assistance topped out at 15mph instead of 20mph would you stop riding a bike and drive instead?

Happy to provide my input!

I started riding an e-bike for 2 reasons – 1) to commute to and from work in the shortest time possible. Prior to that I was spending an hour and 50 minutes per day (roundtrip) commuting via metrobus; the e-bike dropped that to 50 minutes total. The e-bike also ensured I didn’t need to shower once I got to work, which would have killed most of the time I was saving by not riding the bus. 2) As my username might imply, I like to run a lot. I run about 25-35 miles per week and I couldn’t sustain that kind of training while also biking to work. The e-bike allows me to continue working towards my personal running goals while minimizing commute time.

Funny you should ask about a traditional bike because I just purchased one and intend to slowly integrate that into my commuting. Mainly on the days where I’m not running but still want to get the heart rate up with a low impact bicycle workout.

Hard to answer the last question, but it would definitely give me pause. My commute is only 5 miles, but 2 of those 5 are on neighborhood streets and I definitely appreciate the confidence I have from the e-bike when it comes to accelerating and keeping up with traffic.

[Tim Kelley]

@run/bike 122258 wrote:

Happy to provide my input!

I started riding an e-bike for 2 reasons – 1) to commute to and from work in the shortest time possible. Prior to that I was spending an hour and 50 minutes per day (roundtrip) commuting via metrobus; the e-bike dropped that to 50 minutes total. The e-bike also ensured I didn’t need to shower once I got to work, which would have killed most of the time I was saving by not riding the bus. 2) As my username might imply, I like to run a lot. I run about 25-35 miles per week and I couldn’t sustain that kind of training while also biking to work. The e-bike allows me to continue working towards my personal running goals while minimizing commute time.

Funny you should ask about a traditional bike because I just purchased one and intend to slowly integrate that into my commuting. Mainly on the days where I’m not running but still want to get the heart rate up with a low impact bicycle workout.

Hard to answer the last question, but it would definitely give me pause. My commute is only 5 miles, but 2 of those 5 are on neighborhood streets and I definitely appreciate the confidence I have from the e-bike when it comes to accelerating and keeping up with traffic.

Interesting–you went right from not biking at all to ebiking? What convinced you to do so? (I.E. what marketing campaign/argument worked on you?)

With a commute of 5 miles and 25 minutes that’s an average of 12 mph? Do you have a heavy cargo load, or lot of stop signs/stop lights that slow you down? I’d be curious about your ride time on the traditional bike when you start doing that.

[GovernorSilver]

@Tim Kelley 122256 wrote:

I think you missed what we were talking about. You don’t think that going faster allows less reaction time? Or that going faster makes it take longer to slow down? This is in relation to new and inexperienced riders…

Again, look at somebody riding a pedal-assist e-bike at 27 mph vs. a regular bike at 27 mph. You seem to believe there would be a difference in reaction time and braking between the two, even though the speed is exactly the same. I do not believe there is a difference, based on my experience riding a pedal-assist e-bike. That Trek that I tried has a crankset, pedals, brakes – pretty much a regular bike with a pedal-assist motor that cannot operate unless you pedal.

Perhaps yours will be different when you try one. :confused: I don’t how, though, unless you subconsciously ride more recklessly on the e-bike just to “prove” your point.

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