On E-Bikes…

[Harry Meatmotor]

IMHO, we’re still at least 3 or 4 years from seeing even 1% of the new bikes/new riders on the trails being e-bikes.

Until Trek can sell a 7.2FX with E-assist for $200 more than the non-E-assist 7.2FX, E-bikes will continue to be a hard sell to the recreational cyclist. As far as MTBs go, IMBA is doing the right thing. Any machine not entirely powered by a human should not be allowed on a natural surface trail.

[americancyclo]

The e-bike is, potentially, a powerful source of equalization. But the question remains: if you’re on an e-bike, and the battery is aiding in a good portion of your forward movement, are you actually riding? Are you a cyclist? Should you be allowed the rights of a cyclist, on roads and paths and trails?

This has always been a question of vulnerability when dealing with cars, and I don’t see it any differently here. If you have the vulnerability of a cyclist, you should be treated as one.

[jabberwocky]

@americancyclo 122046 wrote:

This has always been a question of vulnerability when dealing with cars, and I don’t see it any differently here. If you have the vulnerability of a cyclist, you should be treated as one.

Arguably, the vulnerability of motorcycles is similar to cyclists (at least as far as cars are concerned) but they are treated very differently because their vehicles are heavier and faster. They require proper licensing and registration and their access to infrastructure is different (they can use interstate highways that ban bikes, and can’t use bike lanes for example).

[notlost]

E bikes can have a place, as Martyn Ashton demonstrates. He’s the guy that was/is paralyzed while riding a little while back.

[Bruno Moore]

Not all ebikes are created equal. Is a Faraday Porteur “bikeish” enough (because of vulnerability, speed, threat to other users in its path, power, etc.) to count as a bike? I’d say yes—the drive of a Faraday doesn’t actually make you faster, it just makes hard accelerations (like from stoplights) easier, especially when under load. What about an Xtracycle 9e? While the Bosch motor in that thing is pretty durn powerful—on full power, I can get an unloaded one from 0 to not-quite-25 before I cross an intersection—an unloaded cargo bike seems to be the exception rather than the rule. I really don’t think I would or could do that with 300 pounds of stuff on the bike, nor would I be as likely to hit “full gas” if I were taking it for more than a joyride. Those science fair projects with motor hubs almost as big as the wheels and hand-actuated throttles, though? Those kinda remind me of an early Harley, the kind that had the pedals for extra oomph.

My guess is that, as the ebike market expands, we’re going to see more differentiation and nuance, just as we see in non-motorized bikes. A motor driven fatbike is probably not going to be used in the same way as an e-assist bakfiets, and talking about them as if they were the same thing just because they have motors doesn’t seem especially helpful.

[Tim Kelley]

@Brünø Moore 122117 wrote:

Those science fair projects with motor hubs almost as big as the wheels and hand-actuated throttles, though? Those kinda remind me of an early Harley, the kind that had the pedals for extra oomph..

Like this? http://www.fastelectricbike.com/book.html

So I actually spent most of last week riding an pedal-assist cargo bike around town, unloaded and with a variety of loads in it. My take away is that I don’t think regulating the strength of the motor matters as much as regulating the speed at which the assist cuts-off. I think that the current 20mph cut off is too fast. I think it should be 15 mph.

Riding the pedal-assist felt like cheating, and although it was nice to get to places without being as sweaty, I didn’t feel like I was getting the health benefits I would have otherwise. It made me feel soft and lazy. I recognize that there are some people with mobility issues, motivation issues, or no-sweat-ride requirements that benefit from an e-assist bike. I just don’t think that having pedal-assist bikes being able to zip around town at 20mph is safe, especially if they are being targeted at new-to-biking interested but concerned riders.

[dasgeh]

@Tim Kelley 122201 wrote:

Riding the pedal-assist felt like cheating, and although it was nice to get to places without being as sweaty, I didn’t feel like I was getting the health benefits I would have otherwise. It made me feel soft and lazy. I recognize that there are some people with mobility issues, motivation issues, or no-sweat-ride requirements that benefit from an e-assist bike.

To this point, think about it this way: if you run everywhere you go, walking feels like cheating. If instead you use moving walkways (bare with me, I spent a lot of time in the airport on Saturday) to go everywhere, walking feels like exercise.
When you move from a non-assisted bike to an assisted bike, yes, you get less exercise. But when you move from a car or transit to an assisted bike, you get more exercise. The beauty of ebikes is they get more people who wouldn’t otherwise make the given trip on a bike, to make that trip on a bike.

That, and biking is about more than the health benefits. ebikes have the same transportation demand management benefits (take up less room on the road and parked) and similar environmental benefits.

Oh, and if you want the work-out, turn off the assist.

[dasgeh]

@Tim Kelley 122201 wrote:

So I actually spent most of last week riding an pedal-assist cargo bike around town, unloaded and with a variety of loads in it. My take away is that I don’t think regulating the strength of the motor matters as much as regulating the speed at which the assist cuts-off. I think that the current 20mph cut off is too fast. I think it should be 15 mph.

I’ve had this thought on the trail, but I think the extra speed is helpful on the road. Better to regulate general behavior on the trail.

[dasgeh]

@Tim Kelley 122201 wrote:

So I actually spent most of last week riding an pedal-assist cargo bike around town, unloaded and with a variety of loads in it. My take away is that I don’t think regulating the strength of the motor matters as much as regulating the speed at which the assist cuts-off. I think that the current 20mph cut off is too fast. I think it should be 15 mph.

I’ve had this thought on the trail, but I think the extra speed is helpful on the road. Better to regulate general behavior on the trail.

[Tim Kelley]

@dasgeh 122217 wrote:

To this point, think about it this way: if you run everywhere you go, walking feels like cheating. If instead you use moving walkways (bare with me, I spent a lot of time in the airport on Saturday) to go everywhere, walking feels like exercise.
When you move from a non-assisted bike to an assisted bike, yes, you get less exercise. But when you move from a car or transit to an assisted bike, you get more exercise. The beauty of ebikes is they get more people who wouldn’t otherwise make the given trip on a bike, to make that trip on a bike.

That, and biking is about more than the health benefits. ebikes have the same transportation demand management benefits (take up less room on the road and parked) and similar environmental benefits.

Oh, and if you want the work-out, turn off the assist.

So are you agreeing with me that it feels like cheating for someone who regularly rides without pedal-assist but that there is a place for pedal-assist bikes for people with mobility issues, motivation issues, or no-sweat-ride requirements that wouldn’t otherwise bike?

[Tim Kelley]

@dasgeh 122220 wrote:

I’ve had this thought on the trail, but I think the extra speed is helpful on the road. Better to regulate general behavior on the trail.

Is there any reservation about putting interested-but-concerned new riders into traffic? That was an argument against Capital Bikeshare that fell flat because of the proven safety record, but then those riders are on bikes that are slow and stable.

[Brendan von Buckingham]

If it looks like a bicycle and sounds like a bicycle, then it’s a bicycle. The more the better. However, due to the fundamental difference of an e-bike (they have an artificial power source) they should have governors or speedometers so that the rider, who’s one-step removed from being intimate with the speed, has certainty about their speed.

[Tim Kelley]

@Brendan von Buckingham 122227 wrote:

they should have governors

And at what speed should that kick in?

[Steve O]

@Tim Kelley 122201 wrote:

Riding the pedal-assist felt like cheating, and although it was nice to get to places without being as sweaty, I didn’t feel like I was getting the health benefits I would have otherwise.

The exercise argument should not be used. For many of us, the health benefits are a side benefit, not the main benefit of riding for transportation. I don’t care if the e-bike makes Tim Kelley feel soft and lazy, but I do care that an e-bike might get some other soft and lazy person to start using a bike.

Also, someone using an e-bike to go 15-20 miles is probably getting more exercise than I am on my regular bike for my 5-mile commute. Or hills. Or cargo. So one cannot make a blanket statement that an e-bike is somehow “cheating.”

More people on more bikes. Fit ones, lazy ones, old ones, new ones, male ones, female ones, red fish, blue fish.

[peterw_diy]

@Tim Kelley 122223 wrote:

So are you agreeing with me that it feels like cheating for someone who regularly rides without pedal-assist but that there is a place for pedal-assist bikes for people with mobility issues, motivation issues, or no-sweat-ride requirements that wouldn’t otherwise bike?

I read that whole thing as

HTFU

which makes me sad.

[Author]

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