NOVA Parks Hearing in e-bikes

[dasgeh]

@zsionakides 187167 wrote:

I would be ok with class 1 e-bikes on trails if they were limited to 15mph for pedal assist. I think 20mph is a little high safety wise – for reference in the Netherlands I believe e-bikes are limited to 30kph (18mph) on bikeways.

Class 2 and 3 e-bikes should be illegal on all trails and class 3 illegal on all 2-way cycletracks and PBLs.

We’ve gone over why speed is better set at 20mph (to keep up with traffic for the inevitable times when ebikes are on roads; also, it’s super easy for an adult to clear 20mph even on a CaBi on a downhill). But why not treat class 2s like class 1s? They have the same speed limitations as class 1, the only difference is the throttle. Throttles are super important for those carrying heavy loads (aka parents) and people with disabilities (who can’t always pedal or have a hard time balancing to start). I don’t know of anywhere in the U.S. that treats class 1s differently than class 2s.

[ChristoB50]

@dplasters 187306 wrote:

You outline a type of dangerous riding. You then show that you too now have the option to recreate that dangerous riding.
So that kind of sums it up right? I’ve no dog in this fight and am pro the e-bikes but I agree with the statement “E-bikes on trails will lead to more dangerous riding” and also “E-bikes on trails could lead to a higher rate of dangerous riding”.

Any rider on any bike equipment has equal potential to create riding that is dangerous to the other users; that is my point. The fit racer created it under his own power. I worked a bit to recreate his behavior on my ebike, so yes, I too could create it if desired; but I can’t create danger to others in any greater capacity than he already can on his analog bike, just because I’m on an e-bike. Nothing about my ebike would let me exceed his existing capabilities in that regard.

I feel like it is a far overreaching statement to say “E-bikes on trails WILL lead to more dangerous biking.” When I began riding the trails for the first time a year ago, I entered a world with plentiful examples of dangerous riding on display, from many different analog riders — yes, likely there are some ebikers in there, too — but analogs far outnumber ebikers so far. I also entered that world to find plentiful examples of safe, considerate riding, on display from both sets of riders, and strive to keep myself in that category.

[dasgeh]

There’s a lot of pearl clutching about dangerous riding on trails. But when we look at the numbers of when trail users are getting seriously injured or killed, we find that generally, a car is involved. Anecdotally, I think most people would agree that the scariest part of the trail experience is when trails cross streets and we have to interact with cars.

Ebikes have a real potential to decrease the number of car trips. Yes, that comes with increased volume on trails, which alone has its drawbacks, and which will likely lead to jerks on trails (see increased volumes). But given the greater good of reduced car trips, I think it’s totally worth it.

[chuxtr]

@dasgeh 187320 wrote:

Anecdotally, I think most people would agree that the scariest part of the trail experience is when trails cross streets and we have to interact with cars.

Actually, it’s walkers, joggers, or anyone else wearing headphones (that includes cyclists) because they are oblivious to their surroundings. The worst are the joggers who pull a Crazy Ivan.

[Steve O]

@chuxtr 187321 wrote:

Actually, it’s walkers, joggers, or anyone else wearing headphones (that includes cyclists) because they are oblivious to their surroundings. The worst are the joggers who pull a Crazy Ivan.

The statistics do not bear that out. Perhaps you consider them the “scariest part of the trail experience,” but they are not close to the most dangerous. (Read this)
There has been exactly 1 pedestrian fatality (that I know of) in the DMV caused by a collision with a cyclist in the 25 years I have lived here. About 1 person on foot each week gets killed by a driver.

[Steve O]

@Christob50 187314 wrote:

…riding that is dangerous to the other users… The fit racer created it under his own power.

It is not clear to me that either this rider or christob50 were creating any danger at all. They were both traveling under 30mph, which in a car would feel kinda slow. If due care were being taken when encountering other trail users, then speed alone is not dangerous. Most Custis riders reach speeds of 25-30 or higher every day on the downhill of the second sister. Shoot, I used to hit 30 there pulling my 5yo daughter on the trail-a-bike. It was fun! And not dangerous.

Zooming along is, by itself, not dangerous. It’s contextual.

On the CCT near Bethesda on a May evening: speed limit should be about 7mph, if that. CCT near Bethesda on a February night: no speed limit required. Contextual.

I am not minimizing the fact that people riding bikes can create hazardous conditions, but I fall in the camp that the overwhelming factor is the rider and not the machine.

[pmf]

I couldn’t make the meeting, but I wrote in opposing ebikes. I commute from Vienna to DC and see increasing numbers of these things. Some observations:

1. There are very few cyclists who can keep up with a person on an ebike. Especially up a hill or into a head wind. Yeah, maybe a cat 2 racer, but that’s not most of us.
2. Most ebike riders I see are not old, infirm, out of shape, etc. Most of them seem to be quite a bit younger than I am (I’m 56). I have seen scant evidence to back up the argument that they help get people out on the trail that physically can’t otherwise.
3. A lot of people I see riding ebikes aren’t very good cyclists. Often when they’re passing several cyclists at a time they seem pretty unsure of what to do when someone is coming the other way. They pass on blind corners a lot.
4. Is it a good idea to have people with questionable riding skills who have the ability to easily travel at 20 mph mixing with the rest us on an 8′ wide strip of asphalt?
5. The situation is tolerable now. I get passed by several ebikes each way (less in the winter) when I commute. I have never passed anyone on an ebike. I ride 4000-5000 miles a year. Five years ago, an ebike was something I saw once a week (actually it was usually an electric wheel). What’s it going to be like five years from now? Everyplace I drive to around here is traffic and some SUV tailgating me because I’m not driving fast enough to get to the next red stoplight. Can’t our bike trails be a place where humans get around on human power?
6. Any performance based rule is meaningless (e.g., to put a ceiling on watts, max speed, etc.). No one will enforce it. In fact, even an outright ban won’t get enforced. I think these things are here to stay.

[mstone]

@Steve O 187327 wrote:

Zooming along is, by itself, not dangerous. It’s contextual.

On the CCT near Bethesda on a May evening: speed limit should be about 7mph, if that. CCT near Bethesda on a February night: no speed limit required. Contextual.

Exactly. And speed limits are a mindless non-contextual solution. 15MPH is low for the hinterlands and downright dangerous in the crowded parts. (And since LE agencies seem required to add 5 or 10 MPH to the speed limit before enforcing, 15MPH is really 20 or 25MPH, right? What’s the point of even spending the money on signs for that?)

Also, FWIW, the above is specific to bikes and has nothing to do with the utility of speed limits for cars on roads–because the speeds involved are so low, there is no assumption that bikes have an accurate speedometer, and the enforcement margin is such a huge fraction of the practical upper speed limit for a bike.

[lordofthemark]

@pmf 187330 wrote:

Five years ago, an ebike was something I saw once a week (actually it was usually an electric wheel). What’s it going to be like five years from now? Everyplace I drive to around here is traffic and some SUV tailgating me because I’m not driving fast enough to get to the next red stoplight.

Where I live is pretty good for trail access (about a mile NW of Shirlington) but I cannot get every place I want to go on trails. I advocate in Alexandria for more on street bike lanes (among other things) If we are really going to see a huge increase in ebikes, that will, I have little doubt make biking more widespread in West Alexandria (where even many young newbies will have trouble with the hills) and make this a more bike friendly city all around.

[zsionakides]

@dasgeh 187311 wrote:

We’ve gone over why speed is better set at 20mph (to keep up with traffic for the inevitable times when ebikes are on roads; also, it’s super easy for an adult to clear 20mph even on a CaBi on a downhill). But why not treat class 2s like class 1s? They have the same speed limitations as class 1, the only difference is the throttle. Throttles are super important for those carrying heavy loads (aka parents) and people with disabilities (who can’t always pedal or have a hard time balancing to start). I don’t know of anywhere in the U.S. that treats class 1s differently than class 2s.

This whole policy discussion is about e-bikes going on trails, and 20mph is too high safety wise. For riding ebikes on the street, you can make them as fast as you want, though I’d highly recommend motorcycle safety courses at that point.

Class 2’s on trails basically means the trail is a commuter highway and not a recreational trail. It’s a slippery slope that turns the MUPs into roads that become about how fast one can go safely and not about enjoying the park. My advocacy on the W&OD is not for high speed commuters, but for people walking, running, or out with small children. Class 2+ ebikes that are basically small motorcycles don’t fit in with a recreational park.

[phog]

Regardless of whether the cyclist on the trail has the assistance of an electric motor, the limits of safety primarily come down to the skill of the rider, the traffic congestion on the trail at any given juncture, the condition of the trail (and weather-related trailway conditions), the severity of a curve, limited sight lines (caused by curves, darkness of night, and hill crests), and vehicle speed, given those factors. I still think trails should have a speed limit, and certain sections should have lower limits (“safe speeds”) posted. This does not mean that that speed is safe when there are adverse conditions or there is heavy traffic on the trail, or when overtaking a pedestrian.

As for the earlier observation that e-bikers are undeterred by hills or head winds, I don’t see why the fact that an ebike can (and probably will) overtake a conventional bicycle on an incline is a problem, if done safely. As I noted earlier, with an e-bike I no longer seek to build speed downhill to “make” the next hill; I just coast. I happily slow to a crawl when passing (unpredictable) pedestrians, particularly pedestrians with meandering dogs, because It takes so little effort to get back up to speed with an e-bike. I’m not scrubbing off hard-earned momentum. Obviously for some time there has been issues with bikes on the trail in general, particularly in recent years; but I don’t think that the emergence of e-bikes are at the root of it.

I used to bike to work every day on those selfsame trails in the late 1980s, but have been flying wild on motorcycles for the last 35 years. Re-introduced to bike commuting more often via an e-bike build, for me it’s merely a once-a-week venture, but the trails are more crowded in general. Not that anyone would miss me, but I wouldn’t do it anymore on a regular bike. West Falls Church to the Capitol is an exhilarating 25 minutes on my motorcycle, a pleasant and invigorating one hour on my e-bike… but on a regular bike it wrecks me, I can’t do it two days in a row. And it takes longer, because of the hill crawls. I don’t go breakneck speeds, I don’t think that I scare/anger anyone on the trails, … unless it hurts the pride of high-tier bicyclists if they get passed on those infernal Arlington hill climbs on the Custis/W&OD. I don’t know why it should; a one horsepower electric motor does not lessen their accomplishment any more than my hundred-horse Suzuki does when I catch a glimpse om ’em on the path, while I’m flying up Route 66.

In the 80s I biked every day, thousands of commutes, five days a week. I had legs like steel bands. Over the last 30+ years of motorcycle commuting, I still managed to knock out a bicycle commute once a month, and on Bike-to-Work Day when it came into being. So, in later years, that’s maybe 300 conventional bicycle commute round trips, 9,000 miles. In these recent years I’ve seen “elite” cyclists blasting past pedestrians, “shooting the gap” when passing a pedestrian with a bike oncoming, seen all kinds of reckless behavior. Countless cyclists executed passes of my bike no matter how hard I was pushing it, not that I minded. So, high performers of the trail, don’t bemoan the fact that today you get passed by some e-bike on steep climbs simply because the technology is there, as long as the pass is not reckless. Besides, the thousand (or two thousand) dollar conventional bike is similarly high-tech, perhaps more exotic than the e-bike.

[Steve O]

May I suggest that posts specific to the NOVA Parks hearing be posted here while more general posts on the e-bike topic be posted in the e-bike thread.

[Sunyata]

@zsionakides 187336 wrote:

This whole policy discussion is about e-bikes going on trails, and 20mph is too high safety wise. For riding ebikes on the street, you can make them as fast as you want, though I’d highly recommend motorcycle safety courses at that point.

Class 2’s on trails basically means the trail is a commuter highway and not a recreational trail. It’s a slippery slope that turns the MUPs into roads that become about how fast one can go safely and not about enjoying the park. My advocacy on the W&OD is not for high speed commuters, but for people walking, running, or out with small children. Class 2+ ebikes that are basically small motorcycles don’t fit in with a recreational park.

I try hard to keep out of these controversial threads. However, I would like to point out that 20 mph is not that fast in context with many sections of the W&OD. I wish folks would remember that the trail is 45-ish miles long and many parts of the trail are very flat and very sparsely populated. On Sunday, I went out for a “recreational” ride (i.e. not exactly commuting) on my gravel bike (i.e. not an e-bike, but definitely not a road bike) and hit 20 mph easily in many sections and it was perfectly safe. I ended up passing a few folks on e-bikes as well. No big deal.

The W&OD has many purposes. For me, it is a safe and easy way to get places (whether it be to work, to a brewery, or out to LoCo gravel). I never use the W&OD to “enjoy the park”. The W&OD is not a nature trail. It is a multi-use trail that is used for recreation, commuting, and exercise. While on the trail, I have had bad experiences with pretty much every mode of user, including pedestrians, clueless dog owners, runners, cyclists, and e-cyclists. Banning e-bikes is not going to make the jerks go away.

So, instead of banning e-bikes or putting in useless speed limits (seriously, who is going to enforce ANY of this?), I think we should just put big signs up about Casey’s Rule #1: DO NOT BE AN ASSHOLE. (If you have ever been on a group ride led by me, you know the drill!)

[Judd]

What’s Casey’s second rule?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zsionakides]

@Sunyata 187349 wrote:

I try hard to keep out of these controversial threads. However, I would like to point out that 20 mph is not that fast in context with many sections of the W&OD. I wish folks would remember that the trail is 45-ish miles long and many parts of the trail are very flat and very sparsely populated. On Sunday, I went out for a “recreational” ride (i.e. not exactly commuting) on my gravel bike (i.e. not an e-bike, but definitely not a road bike) and hit 20 mph easily in many sections and it was perfectly safe. I ended up passing a few folks on e-bikes as well. No big deal.

The W&OD has many purposes. For me, it is a safe and easy way to get places (whether it be to work, to a brewery, or out to LoCo gravel). I never use the W&OD to “enjoy the park”. The W&OD is not a nature trail. It is a multi-use trail that is used for recreation, commuting, and exercise. While on the trail, I have had bad experiences with pretty much every mode of user, including pedestrians, clueless dog owners, runners, cyclists, and e-cyclists. Banning e-bikes is not going to make the jerks go away.

So, instead of banning e-bikes or putting in useless speed limits (seriously, who is going to enforce ANY of this?), I think we should just put big signs up about Casey’s Rule #1: DO NOT BE AN ASSHOLE. (If you have ever been on a group ride led by me, you know the drill!)

I agree that 20mph is not fast in certain sections, but the policy discussion is about making a uniform speed limit on the trail. If NOVA Parks isn’t going to sectionalize the speed limits, then the overall speed limit should be 15mph.

The speed limit is not going to be enforced, however the speed limits and vehicle regulations do matter in cases where an accident occurs and someone is injured. The regulations helps in determining liability, particularly against those who are violating various regulations. Those regulations are one of the reasons I personally recommend to people I know against using an e-bike anywhere they are not authorized by law and regulation. You open yourself up to liability if you hit someone, and you won’t have a strong defense if you are knowingly riding the e-bike somewhere illegally.

[Author]

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