No snow clearing this winter

[mstone]

@rcannon100 68617 wrote:

The question that has to be asked – and again this is just looking for facts I dont have – snow clearing generally incurs fix costs. Whether we clear the trails or not – there are annual fix costs (equipment, etc). What are those costs? (probably the cost of equipment and training).

http://powerequipment.honda.com/snowblowers/models/hs1336ias (side note, I really want one. it throws snow 60 feet!)

What I don’t know is how fast it goes/how many you’d need.

[ShawnoftheDread]

@mstone 68621 wrote:

http://powerequipment.honda.com/snowblowers/models/hs1336ias (side note, I really want one. it throws snow 60 feet!)

What I don’t know is how fast it goes/how many you’d need.

It needs a seat. I’m not going to walk that thing all the way to work.

[dasgeh]

@ShawnoftheDread 68623 wrote:

It needs a seat. I’m not going to walk that thing all the way to work.

I do think there should be an exemption to the motorized vehicles ban for ride on snowblowers.

[NickBull]

@rcannon100 68408 wrote:

This isnt entirely true. Why, because the trails themselves are not the same. The trails have changed since 1991. The big one is the FMR connector from Shilington to CC. Other improvements include improved crossings, improved signs, and improved hours.

On point, you are right. Snow plowing has not changed. And I would agree with the bigger point – Arlco continues to not treat the bike arteries as vital transportation lanes. Parks and Wreck thinks nothing of closing the bike trails during rush hour and not providing adequate detours.

However, progress? in the big picture, there has been tremendous progress. And I feel much safer cycling in Arlington than I did 25 years ago.

Hi, rcannon100, when I said “no progress on this issue” I meant the issue of snow plowing, not the issue of cycling in Arlington. On the latter I agree there’s definitely been progress.

[NickBull]

@mstone 68621 wrote:

http://powerequipment.honda.com/snowblowers/models/hs1336ias (side note, I really want one. it throws snow 60 feet!)

What I don’t know is how fast it goes/how many you’d need.

Well, it says it clears 83 tons per hour.

So how much snow is that? I am guessing from what it feels like when I am out there shoveling, that a one-foot deep snowfall wights about 20 pounds on my 2-foot-wide by 1-foot-deep shovel. So each 20-pound shovelful clears another foot forward of a two-foot-wide path. There are 8300 shovelfulls in 83 tons. So that means in an hour, it clears a 2-foot-wide path for a little over a mile and a half. I think the Custis is about 7 miles long, more or less, so one person could clear a 4-foot wide swath of the Trail in 9 hours. So paying them $60 per hour would cost 9×60=$540 to clear the whole trail. Most snowfalls are considerably less deep but occasionally we have snowmageddon’s. Taking rcannon’s 8.3 days of snowfall as accurate, and if any of my other guesses are in the ballpark of correct, it shouldn’t cost more than $5,400 average per year to keep the whole Custis clear.

Measuring the number of bikes in January is probably not all that good a measure. Many cyclists just stop riding the Trail because 1) it is unpredictable whether it will be clear or not, and 2) once you stop riding for a week in the winter it is tough to start up again. You just wait until spring. If the trail was predictably clear then ridership might be likely to stay higher.

If the “snow period” is three months long that is 65 weekdays. If the trail is snowy/icy for half of them (behind the concrete barriers, snow and ice get little melting done because they are in shadow) then that is 32 weekdays. So if each of those weekdays has an extra thousand trips because it is now passable (and expected to be passable) then that is 32,000 trips. At a cost of $5400, that works out to 16 cents per trip. Of course, there are also pedestrians so that reduces the cost per trip even further.

How much is the snow removal budget for each vehicle trip on roads?

Nick

[mstone]

Point of order: it clears a 3 foot path. It also isn’t clear how deep the snow is for the maximum removal rate. (Speed is affected by snow depth, so there’s probably a sweet spot)

[GB]

My guess is clearing the trails isn’t cost beneficial. – but maybe we can find out:

Question for the forum – What percent of winter riders are on this forum? I’m guessing it’s pretty high ~ 75%. How many forum members are there? How much would you pay to have the trails cleared for your commute? (I’m topping out at $10 b/c that the cost of parking at my office / ~round trip metro)

We need minimum of 1,000 people to each pay $10 per snow event (see $10,000 estimate from somewhere near the start of this thread – I forget which trails that is for, but it wasn’t for all Arlington trails).

If we went to Arlington with 1,000 signatures on a form that said please bill me $10 when it snows and Arlington has the trails cleared within 24hrs I think there’s a pretty good chance they’d do it. – At least a much much higher chance than if we just said please clear the trails. (Maybe next year snow clearing signatures are collected along with blinky-light distribution?)

I think we’re a small enough group that this doesn’t have to be a tragedy of the commons situation. If there are a 1,000 forum members we could collect $10 in cash now and get the contractor to be on standby for 1 snow fall and then reassess for the 2nd snow fall. – If you think that there’s no way that would happen, then I think you’ve answered the cost benefit question – unless you think that a high percentage of the forum are free-riders (riders – get it). Personally I think we’re all ELITE citizens who would be happy to pay for the things we consume (like cleared trails).

[guga31bb]

@GregBain 68637 wrote:

Personally I think we’re all ELITE citizens who would be happy to pay for the things we consume (like cleared trails).

I’m not sure I follow. Is de-icing the roads paid for exclusively by people who drive to work? I doubt it. Unless I’m completely missing the point of your post, is that not what our taxes are supposed to be doing (paying for things that we consume)? I’m probably already, in some way, funding the county’s de-icing of the roads, even though I never drive on them. I have no objection to that — it’s important for people to be able to get to work — but is it so unreasonable to expect that my cycling commute is also possible during the winter?

(I’m probably not impartial because if Custis ever becomes impassible then my closest alternative commute is Lee Hwy, which terrifies me)

[oldbikechick]

@GregBain 68637 wrote:

My guess is clearing the trails isn’t cost beneficial. – but maybe we can find out:

Question for the forum – What percent of winter riders are on this forum? I’m guessing it’s pretty high ~ 75%. How many forum members are there? How much would you pay to have the trails cleared for your commute? (I’m topping out at $10 b/c that the cost of parking at my office / ~round trip metro)

We need minimum of 1,000 people to each pay $10 per snow event (see $10,000 estimate from somewhere near the start of this thread – I forget which trails that is for, but it wasn’t for all Arlington trails).

If we went to Arlington with 1,000 signatures on a form that said please bill me $10 when it snows and Arlington has the trails cleared within 24hrs I think there’s a pretty good chance they’d do it. – At least a much much higher chance than if we just said please clear the trails. (Maybe next year snow clearing signatures are collected along with blinky-light distribution?)

I think we’re a small enough group that this doesn’t have to be a tragedy of the commons situation. If there are a 1,000 forum members we could collect $10 in cash now and get the contractor to be on standby for 1 snow fall and then reassess for the 2nd snow fall. – If you think that there’s no way that would happen, then I think you’ve answered the cost benefit question – unless you think that a high percentage of the forum are free-riders (riders – get it). Personally I think we’re all ELITE citizens who would be happy to pay for the things we consume (like cleared trails).

Why not just organize to clear the trail? I’ve thought of this before, as I slog through the streets waiting for the trail to clear. Between all the cyclists and joggers, if there were a few snow blowers and some shovels and enough people, it might be doable. How could it be organized? “Friends of the Custis?”

[Tim Kelley]

@NickBull 68630 wrote:

I think the Custis is about 7 miles long, more or less

Just being pedantic, but it’s more less than more: http://goo.gl/maps/l3ITZ

[americancyclo]

@mstone 68621 wrote:

http://powerequipment.honda.com/snowblowers/models/hs1336ias (side note, I really want one. it throws snow 60 feet!)

What I don’t know is how fast it goes/how many you’d need.

Better throw, smoother go

For some reason, this reminds me of a laxative slogan.

[GB]

@guga31bb 68639 wrote:

I’m not sure I follow. Is de-icing the roads paid for exclusively by people who drive to work? I doubt it. Unless I’m completely missing the point of your post, is that not what our taxes are supposed to be doing (paying for things that we consume)? I’m probably already, in some way, funding the county’s de-icing of the roads, even though I never drive on them. I have no objection to that — it’s important for people to be able to get to work — but is it so unreasonable to expect that my cycling commute is also possible during the winter?

I don’t know the details of the road de-icing pay structure. I know that there’s a gas-tax that goes toward road construction/repair/maintenance, so there’s at least a correlation between driving and paying for road use. (we sneaky cyclist get to use the road w/out paying this tax – unless there’s a special bike tax that I don’t know about? – Maybe there should be and that money could be used to pay for trail creation/maintenance/clearing)

I wasn’t trying to be a jerk, just brainstorming a solution to a problem (see proposed solution #2 in the bike tax mentioned above). But judging by your post you don’t want to pay (directly) for trail de-icing, so I guess it doesn’t pass your cost benefit analysis (which is fine, it’s really borderline for me).

To the suggestion that we clear it ourselves, that could work. Maybe we clear/salt the weekend after a snow? – I imagine turnout for this would be less than the $10 collection, but that’s just my guess.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@GregBain 68667 wrote:

I don’t know the details of the road de-icing pay structure. I know that there’s a gas-tax that goes toward road construction/repair/maintenance, so there’s at least a correlation between driving and paying for road use. (we sneaky cyclist get to use the road w/out paying this tax – unless there’s a special bike tax that I don’t know about? – Maybe there should be and that money could be used to pay for trail creation/maintenance/clearing)

I wasn’t trying to be a jerk, just brainstorming a solution to a problem (see proposed solution #2 in the bike tax mentioned above). But judging by your post you don’t want to pay (directly) for trail de-icing, so I guess it doesn’t pass your cost benefit analysis (which is fine, it’s really borderline for me).

To the suggestion that we clear it ourselves, that could work. Maybe we clear/salt the weekend after a snow? – I imagine turnout for this would be less than the $10 collection, but that’s just my guess.

My understanding is that, generally speaking, gas taxes cover about 50% of road construction and maintenance…the rest comes from the states’ general funds. Also, I own a car, so I pay the gas tax. And you also get into arguments about fuel efficient vehicles, vehicle miles traveled, etc…so the gas tax issue tends to be more of a red herring than anything. In my mind, the trails are a transportation corridor and should be treated as such by the state/county and get plowed in a timely fashion. Of course, there should be prioritization of trails based on user counts, traffic flows, etc. Also, the trails essentially are a sort of pressure relief valve for car traffic, so making sure that valve stays open should be a priority when snow causes massive traffic delays and tons of accidents.

[mstone]

@GregBain 68667 wrote:

I don’t know the details of the road de-icing pay structure. I know that there’s a gas-tax that goes toward road construction/repair/maintenance, so there’s at least a correlation between driving and paying for road use. (we sneaky cyclist get to use the road w/out paying this tax – unless there’s a special bike tax that I don’t know about? – Maybe there should be and that money could be used to pay for trail creation/maintenance/clearing)

The gas tax doesn’t/wouldn’t pay for this. And every time the silly bike tax argument comes up, we have to repeat all the reasons why it’s silly. (E.g., the revenue generated would likely not exceed the cost of implementation.) We’re already paying sales tax, and that’s the relevant pot of money. Side note: gas is exempted from the sales tax, so drivers get out of paying for everything except transportation–how is that fair? (If I buy an apple, I’m supporting both transportation and everything else paid for out of the general fund. If I buy a gallon of gas, I’m only paying for transportation.) DON’T GIVE THE “CYCLISTS DON’T PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE” ARGUMENT ANY CREDENCE.

[KLizotte]

Yes, at best (using the most generous assumptions) the gas taxes cover 50% of the most tangible, direct costs. The remainder comes out of the GF. There is also the issue of air and noise pollution which gas taxes don’t really address in most cases, as well as the cost to society imposed by accidents, police having to spend an inordinate amount of time dealing with motorists instead of other problems, unhealthy people from spending too much time in the cars, the heat island effect from too much asphalt, etc. Much of the reason the cost of fuel is so much higher in most other developed countries is to force consumers to internalize most of these costs and to pay for transportation improvements. Americans have divorced the true cost of driving from what they pay. *sigh*

[Author]

Posts