New bike lane markings on Pershing from Washington to Arlington Blvd

[DismalScientist]

I was riding in the unprotected bike lane before and a car can easily pass me in the general travel lane. Afterwards, I am in the general lane and the car cannot pass me. This is true of Veitch, Pershing, Hayes and Army-Navy. You have said that you are going to want this on Wilson, Clarendon and Fairfax. If this happens, I think that there will not be what I consider safe infrastructure for me to ride between Ballston and Rosslyn.

[Steve O]

@DismalScientist 182483 wrote:

You have said that you are going to want this on Wilson, Clarendon and Fairfax. If this happens, I think that there will not be what I consider safe infrastructure for me to ride between Ballston and Rosslyn.

I do not believe you. You, Dismal, are comfortable riding in the general travel lanes and have made it clear that you feel plenty safe mixing with traffic, which you have been doing for years. AFAICT, any old road is safe infrastructure for you.
The new infrastructure is not meant for you (or, for that matter, me either); it’s meant to make more people comfortable riding their bikes. PBLs do that, whether or not you happen to like them or think they are more or less safe. The most effective way to improve safety for all people on the roads is for there to be more people riding bikes. More is better.

On Wilson, Clarendon and Fairfax you have 2 lanes in each direction, so cars find it easier to move to the other lane to pass – rather than into an oncoming lane like on Pershing. I don’t believe I have ever had a driver get angry at me for taking a lane on a road with 2 or more lanes going in my direction.
Shoot, they already have to do this most of the time on Fairfax, since the unprotected bike lane is so frequently blocked that bike riders have to take the travel lane anyway to get around the parked trucks, etc.

@DismalScientist 182483 wrote:

I was riding in the unprotected bike lane before and a car can easily pass me in the general travel lane. Afterwards, I am in the general lane and the car cannot pass me. This is true of Veitch, Pershing, Hayes and Army-Navy.

Only a minority of people who ride bikes feel comfortable in unprotected bike lanes. The multitudes of people who currently do not ride their bikes are not riding them for that very reason. There are some who like it that way (“Keep those newbies off my roads and trails!!!”). I am not one of them. I want infrastructure built that Isabella can ride on.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18549[/ATTACH]

[Judd]

I rode bikes with a bunch of 6 year olds this weekend, none of whom I want to take a lane on Pershing.

I think the best compromise here is banning cars from Pershing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tania]

@Steve O 182484 wrote:

I don’t believe I have ever had a driver get angry at me for taking a lane on a road with 2 or more lanes going in my direction.

Come ride on Gallows going in either direction between the Dunn Loring metro at Avenir Place to Cottage Street (no bike lane along this section). They get plenty mad (even at 6am when traffic is relatively light for that stretch of road).

It’s way less stressful (to me) to just hop on the sidewalk here. A walking pace and nod/smile/hello generally makes pedestrians accepting of me. I used to take the lane but it’s just not worth the prayers and hustle during my commute plus it’s only two blocks at the very end or very beginning of my ride. Driver aggression along here is getting worse and worse, I don’t even like using the bike lane.

[huskerdont]

Agree w/ most of SteveO’s post, except I’ve definitely felt some driver heat on 4 lanes in the area. Glebe Road up from Chain Bridge after it goes to 4, Rout 7 through Falls Church (even though it’s 25 mph ffs), George Mason Drive. Maybe I’m just more attuned to driver feelings, or maybe I’m more sensitive to buzzing or people zipping into my lane and turning immediately without a signal.

[bentbike33]

@Tania 182491 wrote:

Come ride on Gallows going in either direction between the Dunn Loring metro at Avenir Place to Cottage Street (no bike lane along this section). They get plenty mad (even at 6am when traffic is relatively light for that stretch of road).

It’s way less stressful (to me) to just hop on the sidewalk here. A walking pace and nod/smile/hello generally makes pedestrians accepting of me. I used to take the lane but it’s just not worth the prayers and hustle during my commute plus it’s only two blocks at the very end or very beginning of my ride. Driver aggression along here is getting worse and worse, I don’t even like using the bike lane.

You can avoid the bike lanes on Gallows between Cottage and the W&OD by taking Cottage eastbound until it ends, left on Sandburg St., then onto the connector trail between the Sandburg St. dead ends, and Sandburg St. (II) up to the W&OD.

[lordofthemark]

1. The conditions on Gallows in FFX County, on Wilson in Arlington, and on Pershing in Arlington are all different, and I have reached the point where absent a REALLY long intricate discussion, I can’t make a cogent sensible point that applies to ALL of them. Can folks stop inserting more and more new roads as examples? (not that its all about ME, of course)

2. Ultimately we may not be able to make everyone happy. We have people (not all 6 year olds) who are going to prefer a PBL over either taking the lane, or a door zone bike lane, even for a short stretch on a 25MPH road. We have folks comfortable taking the lane on a 30MPH road (thanks to the people who have inspired me to SOMETIMES ride up the hill in the lane on Walter Reed from Arlington Mill to King, despite the ever present temptation of the Lucky Run Trail) And we have people at multiple levels and styles of comfort in between. Its pretty clear though that the places that have succeeded the best at increasing biking have been those that lean heavily towards proteced infra. And increasing the numbers of riders is ultimately good for all riders, because more drivers, LE, etc ARE riders in that case.

3. Its a LOT easier to satisfy more riders when we have an actual street grid that means more parallel routes (though its not like everything in DC is hunky dory for riders these days). But most of our suburbs were mostly not built that way, and retrofitting grids in happens seldom, usually as part of big redevelopments, and often even then with incomplete connectivity.

[lordofthemark]

And again, the sheer number of people I see riding the sidewalk (of varying ages, races, types of bikes, etc) all around the region, even in places where the street seems eminently rideable to me (and I don’t go that fast) suggests to me that there remains a large latent demand for PBL’s.

[Tania]

@bentbike33 182494 wrote:

You can avoid the bike lanes on Gallows between Cottage and the W&OD by taking Cottage eastbound until it ends, left on Sandburg St., then onto the connector trail between the Sandburg St. dead ends, and Sandburg St. (II) up to the W&OD.

This is what I’ve been doing for a few years now (dkel showed me). But in order to get to Cottage, it’s either take the lane on Gallows (meh…Sunday at 7:30 am isn’t so bad) or ride on the sidewalk.

I’m actually pretty darn comfortable riding in traffic. I will plant my bike just to the left of the middle of the lane so that it’s impossible for a car to pass me without changing lanes. My lane. MINE. But I won’t unless I absolutely have to. But then I also won’t make a left without a left hand turn light and do everything I can to avoid some roads (the SO is still baffled every time I take a Tania-friendly route rather than the most direct). The potential stress of dealing with drivers (on a bike or when I’m driving too) just isn’t worth it to me.

[DismalScientist]

@Steve O 182484 wrote:

I do not believe you. You, Dismal, are comfortable riding in the general travel lanes and have made it clear that you feel plenty safe mixing with traffic, which you have been doing for years. AFAICT, any old road is safe infrastructure for you.

Sorry, but I ride in the unprotected bike lanes on Fairfax, Wilson, and Clarendon. Well, I’ll take the lane going downhill on Clarendon from Courthouse, just because that should be marked with sharrows instead of a bike lane. The lanes generally are not blocked, but, if so, I will merge into the general lanes when safe to pass obstructions.

I also used to ride in the unprotected bike lanes on Army-Navy, Veitch and Pershing regularly, but, alas, this is no longer an option. At least with these routes, the distances are pretty short so the general lanes aren’t as much of a problem.

[Steve O]

@DismalScientist 182500 wrote:

Sorry, but I ride in the unprotected bike lanes on Fairfax, Wilson, and Clarendon. Well, I’ll take the lane going downhill on Clarendon from Courthouse, just because that should be marked with sharrows instead of a bike lane. The lanes generally are not blocked, but, if so, I will merge into the general lanes when safe to pass obstructions.

I also used to ride in the unprotected bike lanes on Army-Navy, Veitch and Pershing regularly, but, alas, this is no longer an option. At least with these routes, the distances are pretty short so the general lanes aren’t as much of a problem.

Sorry for the confusion. I did not mean to say that you do not ride in the unprotected bike lanes. You said that you may now have to ride in what you deem to be unsafe infrastructure. I responded that you are comfortable riding in traffic lanes, which I believe you generally are.
For Dismal, general traffic lanes do not constitute unsafe infrastructure. That’s what I was saying.

More to the point – no one cares what Dismal considers safe or unsafe. You are not going to start driving or taking the Metro because some PBLs have been built. You will keep riding your bike regardless. OTOH, some previous non-riders may start riding, and that is the goal. You don’t matter, because you already ride and you are not going to stop.

[Judd]

@Steve O 182515 wrote:

More to the point – no one cares what Dismal considers safe or unsafe. You are not going to start driving or taking the Metro because some PBLs have been built. You will keep riding your bike regardless. OTOH, some previous non-riders may start riding, and that is the goal. You don’t matter, because you already ride and you are not going to stop.

Dismal – I care about you and think you matter.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DismalScientist]

@Steve O 182515 wrote:

Sorry for the confusion. I did not mean to say that you do not ride in the unprotected bike lanes. You said that you may now have to ride in what you deem to be unsafe infrastructure. I responded that you are comfortable riding in traffic lanes, which I believe you generally are.
For Dismal, general traffic lanes do not constitute unsafe infrastructure. That’s what I was saying.

More to the point – no one cares what Dismal considers safe or unsafe. You are not going to start driving or taking the Metro because some PBLs have been built. You will keep riding your bike regardless. OTOH, some previous non-riders may start riding, and that is the goal. You don’t matter, because you already ride and you are not going to stop.

I think you misunderstand. The unsafe infrastructure I am referring to are the general travel lanes. Sorry, but I don’t want to ride on a PBL down Fairfax during rush hour. Nor do I want to ride in the general travel lanes down Fairfax in rush hour. I am, however, perfectly content to ride in the unprotected bike lanes during rush hour.

There seems to be this notion out there that the bicycle infrastructure in some place in Europe is ideal. However, this sort of infrastructure seems to be designed for low average speeds. This may be fine in dense urban areas where the average ride is a mile or two. What do faster riders do in Europe? Either they take to the road or suck it up and go slowly. Well, I have a commute of about 8 miles at its shortest. This probably isn’t considered a very long commute in this area. However, a European-style bicycle infrastructure isn’t conducive to such long distances–at least for me. I think you are vastly overestimating the amount of mode shifting to bicycles due to adding PBLs due to the lack of density in this area. Look at how unsuccessful dockless bike sharing is. Everything is moving to e-bikes and scooters because people are basically lazy. Sorry, but I don’t view our biking infrastructure clogged with scooters as a transportation panacea.

[lordofthemark]

@DismalScientist 182518 wrote:

I think you misunderstand. The unsafe infrastructure I am referring to are the general travel lanes. Sorry, but I don’t want to ride on a PBL down Fairfax during rush hour. Nor do I want to ride in the general travel lanes down Fairfax in rush hour. I am, however, perfectly content to ride in the unprotected bike lanes during rush hour.

There seems to be this notion out there that the bicycle infrastructure in some place in Europe is ideal. However, this sort of infrastructure seems to be designed for low average speeds. This may be fine in dense urban areas where the average ride is a mile or two. What do faster riders do in Europe? Either they take to the road or suck it up and go slowly. Well, I have a commute of about 8 miles at its shortest. This probably isn’t considered a very long commute in this area. However, a European-style bicycle infrastructure isn’t conducive to such long distances–at least for me. I think you are vastly overestimating the amount of mode shifting to bicycles due to adding PBLs due to the lack of density in this area. Look at how unsuccessful dockless bike sharing is. Everything is moving to e-bikes and scooters because people are basically lazy. Sorry, but I don’t view our biking infrastructure clogged with scooters as a transportation panacea.

Gotta correct that. The companies are dropping dockless regular bikes because of the caps on total dockless vehicles – they can make more money per vehicle with ebikes and scooters, so given a cap, it does not make sense to have dockless regular bikes. Its not because dockless regular bikes were not being used.

The “sweet spot” for bike commuting in Europe, and almost certainly here, is 2 to 5 miles or so. LOTs of car trips in the USA, and I am quite sure lots in North Arlington (even commutes to DC) are that long. And lots of people will do 8 mile commutes at speeds comfortable in a PBL. My commute is nine and a half miles at it’s shortest, and my pace fits in the PBLs around here fine (and safely).

IIUC in the NL people with much longer commutes (there are quite a few) ride to rail transit. See all those massive bike parking garages at Dutch rail stations. Long distance suburban bike commuters here may not like that prospect. I understand, and, like Judd, I do care. As a caring person. But as a transportation advocate, I realize that that model has reduced car use. AFAICT the model of people riding long commutes at high speeds has never had a significant impact on car usage.

But I do think we should preserve some conventional door zone bike lanes for you to feel comfortable riding in. The City of Alexandria has striped some like that recently, and I am sure they will add more.

[Steve O]

@DismalScientist 182518 wrote:

I think you misunderstand. The unsafe infrastructure I am referring to are the general travel lanes. Sorry, but I don’t want to ride on a PBL down Fairfax during rush hour. Nor do I want to ride in the general travel lanes down Fairfax in rush hour. I am, however, perfectly content to ride in the unprotected bike lanes during rush hour.

Fair enough, but I repeat, what Dismal finds he is perfectly content riding in does not matter. Most people do not find unprotected bike lanes to be contentful places to ride, particularly the ones along Fairfax Drive.

@DismalScientist 182518 wrote:

I think you are vastly overestimating the amount of mode shifting to bicycles

Perhaps, but I am certain that the amount of mode shifting that will occur without improved infrastructure is even less.
Your mode has already shifted, so making you content along your commute is irrelevant.

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