Mode separation! Mode separation!

[DaveK]

The Virginia Avenue rail tunnel is a terrible band-aid for a rail line that should never be located in the city to begin with. If the policymakers had any foresight they would re-route freight around the city through one of the various available rights-of-way through Southern Maryland.

(but tell us how you really feel…)

[runbike]

@dasgeh 90826 wrote:

it looks like we’re getting true mode separation – road for cars, sidewalk for pedestrians, and a true, two-way cycletrack for bikes. When I talk about wanting mode separation along the Custis in Rosslyn, this is what I mean.

I hate to be a voice of doom and gloom but it looks like mode separation is just not in the cards for the Custis. The county is committed to the “Esplanade Project” http://projects.arlingtonva.us/projects/lynn-street-esplanade-custis-trail-improvements/ which takes away a full lane of WB Lee Highway (YAY!) and replaces it with a wider trail (BOO!), doing nothing to address the very real need for pedestrian/cyclist separation. Doesn’t seem like there’s much to be done at this point to change the project seeing as it’s at the 90% design phase.

[dasgeh]

@run/bike 90842 wrote:

I hate to be a voice of doom and gloom but it looks like mode separation is just not in the cards for the Custis. The county is committed to the “Esplanade Project” http://projects.arlingtonva.us/projects/lynn-street-esplanade-custis-trail-improvements/ which takes away a full lane of WB Lee Highway (YAY!) and replaces it with a wider trail (BOO!), doing nothing to address the very real need for pedestrian/cyclist separation. Doesn’t seem like there’s much to be done at this point to change the project seeing as it’s at the 90% design phase.

Here’s the thing: every time I bring it up, I get “oh, that sounds interesting, show us an example and we’ll try to work it in”. So here’s an example – who do we talk to about working it in. I really don’t care if we’re 99% of the way there, if we’re not getting mode separation (which, as I understand it, was NEVER CONSIDERED), it’s a waste of money.

[ShawnoftheDread]

@dasgeh 90826 wrote:

Found this little video of a planned “sidepath” along Virginia Ave in DC. Starting around 4th St (0:37 in the video), it looks like we’re getting true mode separation – road for cars, sidewalk for pedestrians, and a true, two-way cycletrack for bikes. When I talk about wanting mode separation along the Custis in Rosslyn, this is what I mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZFNfODkwaGg
[video]http://www.thewashcycle.com/2014/07/another-video-of-the-virginia-avenue-sidepath-and-rail-tunnel.html[/video]

To me it looks like a regular sidewalk with a running track alongside it. I’d expect to see people on foot using both paths with such a design.

[bobco85]

@ShawnoftheDread 90845 wrote:

To me it looks like a regular sidewalk with a running track alongside it. I’d expect to see people on foot using both paths with such a design.

That’s what currently happens along Water Street at Georgetown Waterfront Park (separated bike trail, sidewalk, and road; pedestrians using both the bike trail and sidewalk).

To me, the only way to effectively separate pedestrians and cyclists is to have a the cyclist part off the curb like with a cycletrack. The visual barrier of a curb tends to keep pedestrians on the sidewalk (although it does not keep cyclists off the sidewalk).

[runbike]

@dasgeh 90844 wrote:

Here’s the thing: every time I bring it up, I get “oh, that sounds interesting, show us an example and we’ll try to work it in”. So here’s an example – who do we talk to about working it in. I really don’t care if we’re 99% of the way there, if we’re not getting mode separation (which, as I understand it, was NEVER CONSIDERED), it’s a waste of money.

I would encourage an e-mail campaign to Project Manager. I e-mailed him back in March and while he was very nice and informative, I got the general feeling that the county is wary of pushing VDOT any further since they consider VDOT’s ceding of that lane a minor miracle. But who knows what effect a few more e-mails might have.

[dasgeh]

@run/bike 90848 wrote:

I would encourage an e-mail campaign to Project Manager. I e-mailed him back in March and while he was very nice and informative, I got the general feeling that the county is wary of pushing VDOT any further since they consider VDOT’s ceding of that lane a minor miracle. But who knows what effect a few more e-mails might have.

Thanks. Can you share the email address?

[Steve]

@bobco85 90846 wrote:

That’s what currently happens along Water Street at Georgetown Waterfront Park (separated bike trail, sidewalk, and road; pedestrians using both the bike trail and sidewalk).

To me, the only way to effectively separate pedestrians and cyclists is to have a the cyclist part off the curb like with a cycletrack. The visual barrier of a curb tends to keep pedestrians on the sidewalk (although it does not keep cyclists off the sidewalk).

Agree. The bike path should be at road level, not elevated like the sidewalk. It also means the bike path is not going up and down curb cuts as it crosses streets. I would do it as road, curb with narrow strip of grass, curb, bike path at road level, curb with sidewalk, and then houses/buildings.

[KLizotte]

There is a very nice wide bike trail along Potomac Ave but it is at sidewalk level and all the peds use it as a sidewalk even though there are walking paths right next to it. It is very frustrating to see all the runners/peds using the bike trail and I’m sure just as frustrating to drivers to see cyclists using the road to avoid the peds. I realized the last time I was riding along Potomac Ave that part of the problem is that some peds are using the trail to get to their vehicles that are parked along the street. I can’t really argue with that logic esp since the walking path(s) don’t follow the trail in a parallel fashion.

I still don’t understand why Potomac Ave needs FOUR lanes for vehicular traffic. That’s a highway. I wish they had taken out a lane and put in a separated bike trail and a parallel ped trail; each mode separated by some grass or medians.

For the record, I think the developer could do so much more with the “park” along Potomac Ave. For the most part, there are only a few benches, a lot of concrete, and the occasional tiny tree. How about some volley ball courts, ping pong, fitness equipment, spray park, another playground or two, dog park, etc.

[cyclingfool]

@KLizotte 90946 wrote:

There is a very nice wide bike trail along Potomac Ave but it is at sidewalk level and all the peds use it as a sidewalk even though there are walking paths right next to it. It is very frustrating to see all the runners/peds using the bike trail and I’m sure just as frustrating to drivers to see cyclists using the road to avoid the peds. I realized the last time I was riding along Potomac Ave that part of the problem is that some peds are using the trail to get to their vehicles that are parked along the street. I can’t really argue with that logic esp since the walking path(s) don’t follow the trail in a parallel fashion.

I still don’t understand why Potomac Ave needs FOUR lanes for vehicular traffic. That’s a highway. I wish they had taken out a lane and put in a separated bike trail and a parallel ped trail; each mode separated by some grass or medians.

For the record, I think the developer could do so much more with the “park” along Potomac Ave. For the most part, there are only a few benches, a lot of concrete, and the occasional tiny tree. How about some volley ball courts, ping pong, fitness equipment, spray park, another playground or two, dog park, etc.

I ride on Potomac a lot. I used to ride it twice a day before 4MR became an option again for me a few weeks ago. I agree with your basic assessment of the issues there. The bike path is hardly worth wasting your time trying to use. Even if there aren’t too many peds around on it, they utility covers every 200 feet smack dab in the middle of the southbound lane are annoying as F, especially given the poor quality of the asphalt work around them. Bump. Bump. Bump., etc., etc. Ironically, since the walking trail (closer to the train tracks) is so much wider, is away from the parked cars, and generally has fewer pedestrians on it, if I go off the street, I tend to ride on it.

That said, I ride on the road there 95% of the time. I am disappointed that there is not some sort of on-street infra for bikes. I agree four lanes seems like overkill right now. I assume it’s based on perceived demand once more of the area is built out, a process which has been going more slowly than I think the city had initially anticipated. Short of bike infra, I’d at least like to see some traffic calming measures there. More curb bumpouts, some speed bumps or tables, etc. As is, it does get treated as a highway, especially by drivers who view it as a way around traffic on 1. On my morning commute especially, there is no shortage of drivers who are doing 25 going on 45. If the speed limit is to be 25, the road should be designed to match. I will give the city kudos for relatively frequent enforcement, but even that tends to be north of the movie theatre and fails to catch those who zip through the area near the park.

I get the occasional jackhole who tries to point out the poorly designed bike path I “should” be riding on. My standard response has become pointing out to him that there are two lanes going the same direction and he is welcome to use the other one to pass me. Most people are quite considerate, though, and give a wide berth or change lanes to pass and accept my presence on the road.

The park is somewhat lacking. The playground is nice, big, and well apppointed. It even has a spray ground of sorts incorporated, which opened earlier this summer to decidedly lackluster reviews from my wife and 2 yo son. The developer paid some pretty coin to straighten the bridge on US1 over the tracks for the city, so maybe pushing harder for better proffers parkwise was not something the city felt inclined to do.

[chris_s]

@run/bike 90848 wrote:

…I got the general feeling that the county is wary of pushing VDOT any further since they consider VDOT’s ceding of that lane a minor miracle…

^^^^ THIS

Getting a lane from VDOT for a trail IS a minor miracle. Getting it for a cycle track would be a major miracle.

[dasgeh]

@chris_s 91000 wrote:

^^^^ THIS

Getting a lane from VDOT for a trail IS a minor miracle. Getting it for a cycle track would be a major miracle.

But don’t we have a friendly administration now? Seriously, does anyone know the project manager’s email? Looking at the number of cyclists who take the lane over the sidepath has me thinking this is REALLY important. Plus, it could be cheaper — don’t tear up the lane, just install a curb (as others suggested) so there’s curb, bike path, curb, ped path.

[chris_s]

@dasgeh 91017 wrote:

But don’t we have a friendly administration now? Seriously, does anyone know the project manager’s email? Looking at the number of cyclists who take the lane over the sidepath has me thinking this is REALLY important. Plus, it could be cheaper — don’t tear up the lane, just install a curb (as others suggested) so there’s curb, bike path, curb, ped path.

It’s right on the website yo.

But seriously, don’t expect changes in a project that’s at 90% design. And changing the culture of an entire department doesn’t happen as quickly as changing governors. The direction from the top matters, but not nearly as much as having people on the ground who “get it”.

[KLizotte]

@cyclingfool 90952 wrote:

I ride on Potomac a lot. I used to ride it twice a day before 4MR became an option again for me a few weeks ago. I agree with your basic assessment of the issues there. The bike path is hardly worth wasting your time trying to use. Even if there aren’t too many peds around on it, they utility covers every 200 feet smack dab in the middle of the southbound lane are annoying as F, especially given the poor quality of the asphalt work around them. Bump. Bump. Bump., etc., etc. Ironically, since the walking trail (closer to the train tracks) is so much wider, is away from the parked cars, and generally has fewer pedestrians on it, if I go off the street, I tend to ride on it.

That said, I ride on the road there 95% of the time. I am disappointed that there is not some sort of on-street infra for bikes. I agree four lanes seems like overkill right now. I assume it’s based on perceived demand once more of the area is built out, a process which has been going more slowly than I think the city had initially anticipated. Short of bike infra, I’d at least like to see some traffic calming measures there. More curb bumpouts, some speed bumps or tables, etc. As is, it does get treated as a highway, especially by drivers who view it as a way around traffic on 1. On my morning commute especially, there is no shortage of drivers who are doing 25 going on 45. If the speed limit is to be 25, the road should be designed to match. I will give the city kudos for relatively frequent enforcement, but even that tends to be north of the movie theatre and fails to catch those who zip through the area near the park.

I get the occasional jackhole who tries to point out the poorly designed bike path I “should” be riding on. My standard response has become pointing out to him that there are two lanes going the same direction and he is welcome to use the other one to pass me. Most people are quite considerate, though, and give a wide berth or change lanes to pass and accept my presence on the road.

The park is somewhat lacking. The playground is nice, big, and well apppointed. It even has a spray ground of sorts incorporated, which opened earlier this summer to decidedly lackluster reviews from my wife and 2 yo son. The developer paid some pretty coin to straighten the bridge on US1 over the tracks for the city, so maybe pushing harder for better proffers parkwise was not something the city felt inclined to do.

This is a very good write-up. I wasn’t aware that the developer paid to straighten out the bridge. Heck, I wasn’t even sure the bridge had been straightened and thought my memory was failing me on how it “used to be.” Nice to know I’m not crazy.

I’ve never taken Potomac Ave during rush hour so should have guessed drivers fly down that roadway. Am surprised the highway engineers didn’t anticipate that happening given Rte 1 next door. Yes, traffic calming would be great there esp with all of the anticipated kids to be moving into the neighborhood.

Overall, I felt somewhat disappointed in the road/bike/ped infrastructure the first time I went through. It could have been so much better for the same amount of money spent if the design had been better thought out. Perhaps a writing campaign to the project manager would at least get them to consider alternatives.

[ShawnoftheDread]

@dasgeh 91017 wrote:

But don’t we have a friendly administration now? .

Maybe. How much money you got?

[Author]

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