Lynn/Lee Intersection of Doom Medium-Term Fixes

[bentbike33]

Yesterday, heading west through the IoD into the gale and bright late-afternoon sun at about 5:20, I looked up to observe the operation of the of the lighted no turn on red sign. At the height of afternoon rush hour, it was unreadable and all you could see when the red “NO” symbol came on was the red “NO” symbol, begging the question “No what?”.

Is it more visible in the morning when the morning sun is shining on it? Or can it only be seen in the dark of night or on extremely cloudy days?

[dasgeh]

@bentbike33 111592 wrote:

Yesterday, heading west through the IoD into the gale and bright late-afternoon sun at about 5:20, I looked up to observe the operation of the of the lighted no turn on red sign. At the height of afternoon rush hour, it was unreadable and all you could see when the red “NO” symbol came on was the red “NO” symbol, begging the question “No what?”.

Is it more visible in the morning when the morning sun is shining on it? Or can it only be seen in the dark of night or on extremely cloudy days?

These reports are helpful. Just to make sure I understand – you could see the white part (the circle and line) but not the red part (the right turn arrow), right?

Keep the feedback coming. If you have pictures, those are extra helpful.

[bentbike33]

@dasgeh 111594 wrote:

These reports are helpful. Just to make sure I understand – you could see the white part (the circle and line) but not the red part (the right turn arrow), right?

Your description of the sign does not sound right. I saw a red circle with a line (universal “NO” symbol) light up. Nothing else was discernible.

Sorry, no pictures. No time to stop yesterday.

[scoot]

@rcannon100 111570 wrote:

I mean, as a driver, my normal for an intersection where I am turning right is to approach the Intersection, look up for the “no right on red” sign – and if I dont see one – drop my eye sight back down to watch pedestrians and then go when clear. I am no longer looking up because in effect, if there is no “no right on red” sign – the traffic light has become irrelevant to me if I am turning right.

Bingo. Which means that a “No Turn on Red” signal phase will never work if it immediately follows a “Right Turn Permitted on Red, After Stop.” It doesn’t matter whether it’s an LED sign that turns on or whether it’s a red arrow that stops flashing, the point is that drivers won’t be looking there (and nor should they expect that they need to).

[dasgeh]

@scoot 111599 wrote:

Bingo. Which means that a “No Turn on Red” signal phase will never work if it immediately follows a “Right Turn Permitted on Red, After Stop.” It doesn’t matter whether it’s an LED sign that turns on or whether it’s a red arrow that stops flashing, the point is that drivers won’t be looking there (and nor should they expect that they need to).

You don’t think a sign that says “no right turn when lit” would address the issue? I don’t know if it’s possible to get that, but it’s been suggested.

@bentbike33 111597 wrote:

Your description of the sign does not sound right. I saw a red circle with a line (universal “NO” symbol) light up. Nothing else was discernible.

Sorry, no pictures. No time to stop yesterday.

You’re right – I had the colors reversed — the circle with line is red, the right turn is white.

[Steve O]

@dasgeh 111600 wrote:

You don’t think a sign that says “no right turn when lit” would address the issue? I don’t know if it’s possible to get that, but it’s been suggested.

This would be a big improvement. Address the issue? We’d have to wait and see.

[mstone]

@dasgeh 111600 wrote:

You don’t think a sign that says “no right turn when lit” would address the issue? I don’t know if it’s possible to get that, but it’s been suggested.[/quote]

No, nobody will see it. Will Arlington insist on wasting money implementing it before believing that?

[scoot]

@dasgeh 111600 wrote:

You don’t think a sign that says “no right turn when lit” would address the issue? I don’t know if it’s possible to get that, but it’s been suggested.

Hmm… that one does at least inform drivers that there are some times when it is allowed and other times that it isn’t. But it gives no indication that the status is likely to change while they are waiting, and that they have to continue to monitor the traffic signal. I can only think of two other types of conditional restrictions on red right turns that I’ve seen: those which require checking your watch (e.g. “No Turn on Red 7am-7pm”) and those which require surveying the scene (e.g. “No Turn on Red When Pedestrians are Present”). In neither of those cases do you need to look back to the traffic signal after determining that a turn on red is permissible.

Also at what point do the rules become too complex to expect drivers to be able to follow? I suspect that intersection gets more than its fair share of out-of-town drivers. Realistically, how much information can be communicated to a visitor who just picked up a rental car at DCA and is now trying to find his hotel in Georgetown?

(For the sake of argument, let’s assume a good driver, conveniently overlooking the likelihood that this guy is on his Blackberry trying to make up for lost time in the air…)

[scoot]

@scoot 111620 wrote:

Also at what point do the rules become too complex to expect drivers to be able to follow?

Eh, I guess I already know the answer to that one: Speed Limit X, where X is any positive real number.

[rcannon100]

um…. y a y …. one day of enforcement…. what could go wrong….

Ooooh there is that confused statistic again, where they lump cyclists and pedestrians together.

Approximately 25 percent of the traffic fatalities in the Washington area are pedestrians and bicyclists, with nearly 90 deaths per year.

From: Arlington County Police Department Date: Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 1:42 PM
Subject: Police to Participate in Pedestrian Safety Traffic Enforcement Detail
To: chris@dodgersden.com

ARLINGTON, VA – On Tuesday, March 24, 2015, from 7:00 a.m. until 9:00 a.m. and again from noon to 1:00 pm, officers with the Arlington County Police Department’s Special Operations Section will be out promoting the 2015 Spring Pedestrian & Bicycle Safety Awareness Program. The pedestrian safety enforcement detail will be held in the Rosslyn, Courthouse and Columbia Pike areas. This campaign will run from March 23, 2015 through April 19, 2015. Officers will enforce traffic, bicycle and pedestrian laws at the intersections of Lee Highway and N. Lynn Street, N. Courthouse Road and N. 15th Street, Columbia Pike and S. Dinwiddie Street and Columbia Pike and S. Scott Street.

The detail is part of the 2015 Street Smart Pedestrian, Driver, and Bicyclist Safety Campaign and the Arlington Police Department’s Pedestrian and Bicycle Safety Awareness Program to promote pedestrian and bicycle safety across the region. These programs are set up to carry out education and enforcement campaigns throughout the year in order to ensure everyone shares the roads safely. Approximately 25 percent of the traffic fatalities in the Washington area are pedestrians and bicyclists, with nearly 90 deaths per year.

Officers will ticket motorists who violate traffic laws or do not yield for pedestrians in crosswalks. In addition, pedestrians will be cited for jaywalking. Public Service Aides will hand out safety information to drivers, pedestrians and bicyclists who commute through these busy intersections.

–30–

Media Contact: Dustin Sternbeck, dsternbeck@arlingtonva.us, 703.228.4331

View this release in our newsroom: http://newsroom.arlingtonva.us/release/police-to-participate-in-pedestrian-safety-traffic-enforcement-detail/

This message was sent to chris@DODGERSDE

[chris_s]

Well at least they’ve decided that the no-right-on-red is enforceable.

We’re following up regarding the No-Turn-On-Red signal on Lee Highway and North Lynn Street. A few weeks back, there was mention that the signal was unenforceable. Our Police Department confirmed with VDOT and our Transportation, Engineering and Ops Bureau that this signal is in fact enforceable. Its purpose is to eliminate conflicts between vehicles and pedestrians/cyclists in the crosswalk during the traffic signal’s lead pedestrian interval. Our officers will enforce this signal as resources allow and will continue to have an increased presence in the area.

As you know, this is a multi-departmental effort and improving the safety at this busy intersection is one of our top priorities. If you have any questions, please contact Larry Marcus or Capt. Dave Dailey. Thank you for your cooperation.

Best,

Jessica Baxter
Communications Specialist
Arlington County Department of Environmental Services

[Kolohe]

Adam “Sprawl and Crawl” Tuss was at the intersection yesterday

http://www.nbcwashington.com/video/#!/news/local/New-Safety-Measures-at-Rosslyns-Intersection-of-Doom/296800771

(autoplay video, as is NBC4Washington’s wont)

[mstone]

@chris_s 111718 wrote:

Well at least they’ve decided that the no-right-on-red is enforceable.

We’re following up regarding the No-Turn-On-Red signal on Lee Highway and North Lynn Street. A few weeks back, there was mention that the signal was unenforceable. Our Police Department confirmed with VDOT and our Transportation, Engineering and Ops Bureau that this signal is in fact enforceable. Its purpose is to eliminate conflicts between vehicles and pedestrians/cyclists in the crosswalk during the traffic signal’s lead pedestrian interval. Our officers will enforce this signal as resources allow and will continue to have an increased presence in the area.

As you know, this is a multi-departmental effort and improving the safety at this busy intersection is one of our top priorities. If you have any questions, please contact Larry Marcus or Capt. Dave Dailey. Thank you for your cooperation.

Best,

Jessica Baxter
Communications Specialist
Arlington County Department of Environmental Services

So ACPD will have to change its position from “it’s unenforceable” to “we’re just not going to enforce it”?

[rcannon100]

@chris_s 111718 wrote:

Well at least they’ve decided that the no-right-on-red is enforceable.

Now we will see if a court agrees. Enforceability presumes notice. A sign that is not on until the moment you are suppose to follow it – isnt good notice.

Mejor que nada.

[rcannon100]

While Arlco Popo is engaged in pedestrian safety campaign in Rosslyn, cyclist gets door by Uber passenger.

Yup.

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