King Street Bike Lanes

[DismalScientist]

@lordofthemark 63944 wrote:

Actually that raises another point. If the on street space is your property, but with a public easement, like the sidewalk, then why are you NOT required to shovel the snow from the onstreet parking space?

I have the opposite situation that my property line does not extend even to the sidewalk. But, if I had to shovel the street in front of my house, it would certainly be done before the county ever gets to it.

[lordofthemark]

@DismalScientist 63947 wrote:

It’s entirely different for a business decision. Government is coercion. If the government screws up a BCA, the people have to deal with the consequences. If a business screws up, it loses money.

The business case is done by agents, on behalf of shareholders (and, arguably, other stakeholders) Shareholders have recourse by various means – as do citizens as voters and participants in a free political system.

The distinction is ideological, its not economics. Its not science. ANd its irrelevant to the issue of considering second order effects. A faithful agent in a business will consider second order impacts until the likely gain from doing so is less than the cost of doing the BCA. A faithful govt economist doing a BCA will do exactly the same thing.

I have been in BOTH positions, and I can tell you I took the same approach, and faced the same issues when I did BCA for govt, and when I did NPV/IRR analysis for a major corp.

[mstone]

@DismalScientist 63947 wrote:

It’s entirely different for a business decision. Government is coercion. If the government screws up a BCA, the people have to deal with the consequences. If a business screws up, it loses money.

Your ideology is showing because, yeah, nothing a business has done has ever had a negative effect beyond making the business lose money.

[lordofthemark]

@DismalScientist 63886 wrote:

These parking spaces aren’t assigned to anyone. Bike lanes would be subsidized infrastructure to bicyclists who may not reside in Alexandria and therefore not pay relevant taxes.

A lot of Alexandria residents bike in DC. And in arlington. Probably not so many in FFX.

I am all for greater regionalism in transport funding. Probably more important for rail and highways than for bike lanes, but still.

[JorgeGortex]

Well, I can concede the logic of your points. I myself had the undeveloped shoulder in front of my home amended to be sidewalks. Annoying as it was, it did serve a public good. This… I am not so sure about. I think there are a lot of considerations and logistics involved, and that includes the consideration of the home owners and what they would like in their community, what they feel is safe for them, etc.

As a PS- I would “pitch a fit” all over again with my property if it were to happen. Why? Because the promises the county made to me about how things would be handled and how they would help make things right for the damage they did to my property never materialized. So I am skeptical in these cases.

@jabberwocky 63856 wrote:

Honestly? If they bought houses expecting free public spaces in front of their houses for perpetuity, screw ’em. I deal with people like that all the time (I’m an architect), and I’ve kinda lost patience with them. If you buy a house, don’t expect anything except what you actually own to stay the same. Vacant lot behind your house? Guess what, that lot is owned by somebody, and (given land values in the region) probably won’t be a vacant lot forever. Road easement along the front? Don’t pitch a fit when the county utilizes that easement for road widening. Parking lane? Don’t be shocked when a road redesign puts that to better public use. Etc, etc.

People definitely have a sense of entitlement to public resources that I find maddening. Its also common in the off-road world, where locals pitch a fit when a trail system is improved at a public park (that might bring more people to OUR TRAILS!).

[DismalScientist]

@lordofthemark 63949 wrote:

dismal

thought experiment

I think I agree that making a property rights issue about the allocation of public spaces is inappropriate and is best to stick to (as if there is an alternative) a BCA analysis. Just make sure everyone’s interests are fairly considered.

Additionally, there are benefits to consistent government policy over time.

As I said, I don’t have a dog in this fight. It seems that the neighborhood got together and came up with a solution without parking spaces, which is fine by me. I only reacted when someone made the subsidy argument. One could make the same argument justifying the county setting some sort of experimental theater in the parking spaces in front of a house in some quiet residential neighborhood. If that were done in front of that posters’ house, I doubt that we would here the same subsidy argument. As I said, I think it depends on whose ox is being gored.

[JorgeGortex]

@dasgeh 63927 wrote:

I also think governments enable people to coordinate their efforts for the greater good. In this case, homeowners may want the traffic calming, but if were done only outside of individual houses, it wouldn’t be effective. By coordinating, they all benefit.

And I also used to live on a busy street. Some mornings, I had to muscle my way out into traffic (have you considered backing into the driveway? that helped us). It wasn’t a surprise though, and we planned accordingly (parked around the corner the night before, if we REALLY had to get out quickly).

In regards to the traffic calming point that people are discussing: if anyone thinks that traffic calming on this stretch of road is wise… I remember when the planning for the sidewalks along Washington Blvd. in Arlington was taking place, and my neighbors and I walked along with county planner discussing things. One of my neighbors piped up that we needed traffic calming at Harrison St because Washington Blvd was a neighborhood street. I had to politely tell him he was high, that Washington Blvd is a major artery through the county… as is King Street through all of Alexandria. It is a major thoroughfare for transportation. Traffic is bad enough, but “calming” it will results in even more of a nightmare.

Not to be rude, but, uh, yes, I’ve thought of backing into my driveway. My family has owned the house since the 1950’s, and I moved in full time in 1995. I am very understanding of what is possible… which is why I’ve backed into my driveway maybe a handful of times over the years. Not only would this maneuver be even more perilous, but the speed at which I’d need to do it puts at risk me not carefully watching for peds on the sidewalk, and, ahem, cyclists in the bike lane. I refuse to place my car on a side street (and inconvenience another home owner). As it is I’m about to do a very expensive yard project, just so I can turn around and pull out head first.

JG

[DismalScientist]

@lordofthemark 63953 wrote:

. A faithful govt economist doing a BCA will do exactly the same thing.
.

But the lawyers make all the decisions in government.

(I agree methodologically BCAs by the government and business should be the same although governments being run by politicians likely have higher discount rates!)

[lordofthemark]

@DismalScientist 63962 wrote:

I think I agree that making a property rights issue about the allocation of public spaces is inappropriate and is best to stick to (as if there is an alternative) a BCA analysis. Just make sure everyone’s interests are fairly considered.

Additionally, there are benefits to consistent government policy over time.

As I said, I don’t have a dog in this fight. It seems that the neighborhood got together and came up with a solution without parking spaces, which is fine by me. I only reacted when someone made the subsidy argument. One could make the same argument justifying the county setting some sort of experimental theater in the parking spaces in front of a house in some quiet residential neighborhood. If that were done in front of that posters’ house, I doubt that we would here the same subsidy argument. As I said, I think it depends on whose ox is being gored.

There are many better places to put experimental theaters – from indoor spaces, to stages in parks, to parking spaces in commercial areas http://www.king5.com/news/cities/seattle/Seattle-to-turn-parking-spots-into-little-parks-202786881.html

If there are better places to put a bike lane connecting Janneys Lane to old Town, that should be considered.

[lordofthemark]

@DismalScientist 63967 wrote:

But the lawyers make all the decisions in government.

(I agree methodologically BCAs by the government and business should be the same although governments being run by politicians likely have higher discount rates!)

At the corp where I worked the senior execs (who included lawyers) made the final decisions.

The issues relating to discount rates are complex. Im of the old Chicago school that says they should be project spefic based on non-diversifiable risk – but Ive seen that applied very very loosely in the private sector, and the issue hardly examined in the public sector.

[lordofthemark]

@JorgeGortex 63963 wrote:

In regards to the traffic calming point that people are discussing: if anyone thinks that traffic calming on this stretch of road is wise…

Note, traffic calming does not always mean traffic slowing – by reducing the number of accidents, and generally by smoothing speeds, in some instances traffic calming can actually reduce delays for motor traffic.

I also doubt this will have a major negative impact on folks living in the denser parts of NW Alexandria (I used to live there some time ago). But they are welcome to express their opinions.

[dasgeh]

@DismalScientist 63967 wrote:

But the lawyers make all the decisions in government.

(I agree methodologically BCAs by the government and business should be the same although governments being run by politicians likely have higher discount rates!)

My agency is run by (mostly) economists. And some lawyers are economists too!

I’ve already had the parking directly in front of my house “taken” <*GASP*> and I think it was the right call. When need be, we park down the street and WALK all the way to our house. Guests often must do the same. Some end up walking an entire block, especially when we have parties. It’s so awful, we’ve heard exactly 0 complaints about it.

Of course, if they wanted to put experimental theater in front of our house, we’d be all for it. Free entertainment, which we can enjoy from the front porch!

[DismalScientist]

@mstone 63956 wrote:

Your ideology is showing …

I have this strange suspicion that I’m about ready to be voted off the island.:rolleyes:

[lordofthemark]

@DismalScientist 63992 wrote:

I have this strange suspicion that I’m about ready to be voted off the island.:rolleyes:

divoisity is good.

heck, I’m so old, I remember when the kinds of views on economics I currently espouse were considered RIGHT wing. (maybe not within the profession, but iamong lay people)

[mstone]

@JorgeGortex 63963 wrote:

In regards to the traffic calming point that people are discussing: if anyone thinks that traffic calming on this stretch of road is wise… I remember when the planning for the sidewalks along Washington Blvd. in Arlington was taking place, and my neighbors and I walked along with county planner discussing things. One of my neighbors piped up that we needed traffic calming at Harrison St because Washington Blvd was a neighborhood street. I had to politely tell him he was high, that Washington Blvd is a major artery through the county… as is King Street through all of Alexandria. It is a major thoroughfare for transportation. Traffic is bad enough, but “calming” it will results in even more of a nightmare.

Thank god the pendulum is finally shifting away from prioritizing cars over all other concerns. Traffic calming generally means “encouraging drivers to following the existing rules”. The road is signed for a particular speed limit, and that speed limit can’t be increased for safety reasons. (See the sidewalk 0 feet away from the speeding cars.) If the citizens decide that they want that street to be one which has a higher speed limit, they need to upgrade the street for that speed, which will probably mean taking some houses to widen the ROW and add separated pedestrian facilities, shoulders, etc. But that’s a process that should happen as the result of a deliberate decision, not a tacit permission for drivers to just drive as fast as they feel like driving and to hell with everybody else.

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