Jogger-Cyclist collision and lawsuit

[lordofthemark]

@DismalScientist 123880 wrote:

The whole Greenway may be 5 miles long, with the rest looking like a standard MUT, but to put a curb for 1 mile down the middle of a lightly used street to provide a protected lane is, in my opinion, extremely poor design that likely contributed to this incident. It would seem the easiest and safest to just route the trail along the street without any trail-specific infrastructure.

Another example in this area would be Van Buren Street, which effective connects two separate, although unofficial, segments of the W&OD.

Except Tuckahoe also connects the sections, and it has a sidewalk along almost its entire length, for pedestrians uncomfortable walking in the street. And IIRC Tuckahoe is actually signed as the W&OD, though many cyclists take Van Buren, which avoids some of the sharp curves in the park.

Another example in our region of a MUT routed on a street is Union Street in old Town. That also has sidewalks, and even an alternate ped trail along the river much of the way, not to mention striped bike lanes much of the way.

There are the gaps in the MBT in NE DC, but again IIRC all of those streets have sidewalks.

I cannot think of any place I know where we expect pedestrians to transition from a MUT to walking in a (sidewalk free) street signed at 15MPH or higher, except that very short cul de sac end of Tuckahoe. Which is, after all, a cul de sac.

Then there are the gaps in the Gerry Connolly Cross County Trail, all of which, IIRC, have the trail routed on sidewalks.

[lordofthemark]

Note I am not saying something like what dismal described could never work. Though IIUC in the NL woonerfs are signed at no more than 15KPH, (IE less than 10MPH) IIUC some places in the US are considering them with higher speed limits (but with appropriate traffic calming, and other street features to make them more woonerf like – a typical US road with a 15MPH speed limit will unfortunately have people speeding above that)
And yes, I know people in legacy sidewalk free neighborhoods do walk on streets with posted limits as high as 25MPH, and in rural areas on roads with even higher limits (though some of those seem very scary to me)

I just do not know of any in the context of a section of a longer MUT.

[Steve O]

@DismalScientist 123865 wrote:

Cyclists who will not ride on a flat street with little traffic and a 15 mph speed limit should not be on a busy trail.

My issue is not with the bike riders but with the car drivers. In this context I believe the cars would be the bad behavers and would make it more dangerous for all the users of the trail. 15mph on signs means 22mph in practice, passing kids on bikes and people pushing strollers. As you mentioned in your earlier post, you don’t know what to do about the people on foot. I think it is safer to create a separate space for them, and since there is no room for a sidewalk, separating the street from the trail is the better solution.

[DrP]

One of the things I did not see mentioned in the article, or in any related such articles about bikes and peds or even cars and bikes, and that is that there are laws every MUST follow whether they want to or not – the laws of physics. Sure, bikes are to yield to peds on the trails, but there is a point that no matter how conscientious a cyclists is, the cyclist cannot stop or turn in time to avoid a collision if the ped is not paying any attention. Folks seem to have some stopping distance understanding for cars, but not for bikes. I once had a crazy ivan do a 180 in front of me (no looking, no signally and wearing headphones) after I rang my passing bell and I was in the other lane already. There was maybe 6-10ft and I grabbed my brakes hard, my feet slid off the pedals (I do not clip in) and they helped me stop too. I still hit her, but not that hard (bruises most likely). Had she turned a few seconds later, it could have been worse.

This goes for car-bike interactions too. They seem to make some assumptions as to the ability of bikes to stop really quickly, yet they know they cannot.

How do we get the word out about stopping distances for bikes and this is key reason for peds needing to look before turning on trails?

[sjclaeys]

@DrP 123914 wrote:

One of the things I did not see mentioned in the article, or in any related such articles about bikes and peds or even cars and bikes, and that is that there are laws every MUST follow whether they want to or not – the laws of physics

[ATTACH=CONFIG]9581[/ATTACH]

[Vicegrip]

All but the fact the runner did not check behind before turning and crossing a lane of travel is sidebar. Regardless of the format of a travel lane changes in direction are up to the person making the change. Check your 6 people

I don’t understand the runner crazy Ivan. I have had it happen to me too many times to think it is the odd action of someone that is new and uninformed to trail use

[creadinger]

@Steve O 123889 wrote:

15mph on signs means 22mph in practice

The speed limit on the Suitland Federal Center is 15mph and Steve is entirely correct – I find that it is physically difficult to make my car drive less than 20 mph. Around 15 mph, the engine is in first gear and it’s racing (wasting gas too). Go slightly faster and it shifts to 2nd gear and automatically wants to go 20+, so I’d have to ride the brakes to go 15, which I’m not going to do.

[DismalScientist]

Y’all must find riding a bicycle on quiet residential streets terrifying. After all, the speed limit is 25.

[lordofthemark]

@DismalScientist 123939 wrote:

Y’all must find riding a bicycle on quiet residential streets terrifying. After all, the speed limit is 25.

I used to live in Annandale. The quiet residential streets, without sidewalks, posted at 25 were fine for biking. I found them uncomfortable for walking – perhaps it is my NYC upbringing, but walking on a street without a sidewalk is disconcerting to me.

If MUT’s were only for cyclists, the design issues would be different. But, as we tell the morons who shout “go ride on the bike path!” they are not in fact bike paths. They are multiuser trails. Park authorities generally build them for the comfort of pedestrians as well as other users. And, more than streets, they build them to be comfortable for pedestrians to enjoy, looking around at nature, etc. Pedestrians of all ages, from 3 to 103.

[DaveK]

@creadinger 123933 wrote:

…shifts …automatically…

There’s your problem right there.

[creadinger]

@DaveK 123952 wrote:

There’s your problem right there.

Eh… I learned to drive on stick shift cars. They were great. That was in central PA though. I now live inside the beltway, which is a traffic hellhole, and the one place that stick shift sucks is in stop and go traffic. It’s annoying as f*&^. And as much as I like to bike, I still have to drive a bit, hence the automatic transmission.

[DaveK]

@creadinger 123953 wrote:

Eh… I learned to drive on stick shift cars. They were great. That was in central PA though. I now live inside the beltway, which is a traffic hellhole, and the one place that stick shift sucks is in stop and go traffic. It’s annoying as f*&^. And as much as I like to bike, I still have to drive a bit, hence the automatic transmission.

I understand, I just bought an automatic because the hateful Honda Motor Empire won’t sell me a manual in this particular car. I do think the world would be better off though if we were all forced to drive manual.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@DaveK 123955 wrote:

I understand, I just bought an automatic because the hateful Honda Motor Empire won’t sell me a manual in this particular car. I do think the world would be better off though if we were all forced to drive manual.

Same. A little easier to find manuals in sedans and coupes, but with only one car we wanted more space and got a crossover, which are basically impossible to find with manuals in the U.S.

[Crickey7]

Last two times I’ve travelled to Europe, I’ve rented diesel-powered, manual transmission (6 speed) 7-seater “people movers” akin to the smallish Mazda minivan here. They were terrific, sporty and economical. It’s too bad we don’t have that option here.

[DismalScientist]

The Mazda 5 used to be (2014!) available with a standard transmission.

The Mazda 5 automatic also has a manual mode, which I find difficult because of the sound insulation. I don’t get a good understanding of engine speed from the road feel or sound in manual mode.

[Author]

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