Is it time for a "stops signs and trail crossings" thread yet?

[jabberwocky]

I tend to treat them as I would any stop sign. My baseline is to do a full stop. If its an intersection with good visibility for cars and pedestrians and is obviously clear, I’ll usually roll it (by which I mean I brake, slow down to 5-10mph while looking both directions, then accelerate across the intersection). I acknowledge its not strictly legal, but its never caused a problem for me. I only go when there is obviously no traffic.

I do think theres a hidden danger in getting into the habit of rolling intersections. You tend to start doing it when you really shouldn’t. It becomes the familiar action. Its also worth noting that sightlines for a lot of trail crossings sucks for motorists (the smaller roads the W&OD crosses are commonly like this). In a car, you need to be right at the crosswalk to see anything that isn’t 10 feet from the roadway on the trail. You probably see the car well before they see you, especially if you’re rolling quickly.

The law varies by jurisdiction but is generally not clear. My recollection for VA is that it says something like “motorists shall yield right of way to pedestrians in crosswalks” but also that “pedestrians shall not enter the road in disregard of traffic”. Which are, to an extent, contradictory.

[CaseyKane50]

The city of Alexandria seems to think bike riders must obey all stop signs. They have recently added signs at various trail exits and along Union Street. I understand that the signs were added due to citizen complaints.

Southbound on the Mt. Vernon Trail at Pendleton Street
[ATTACH=CONFIG]10308[/ATTACH]

Southbound on Union Street
[ATTACH=CONFIG]10309[/ATTACH]

Northbound as you exit the Mt. Vernon Trail onto Royal Street
[ATTACH=CONFIG]10310[/ATTACH]

[ShawnoftheDread]

They put a “bicyclists must obey stop” sign under a yield? Genius.

[Tania]

Unless I know FOR SURE that a car is going to stop for me (as in, they’ve already stopped as I approach the trail crossing because they see me/others coming), I’ll stop and put down a foot. I’ve been practicing track stands but then I realized that makes drivers nervous since they can’t tell what I’m about to do.

I’d say about 80% of the time, drivers will stop in advance of me and then it’s waves, smiles and nods of thanks all around. I do appreciate it.

I will do a slow rolling Idaho stop if it’s obviously clear and safe. Most of my stop-signed trail crossings but one (Virginia Lane – sight lines, speed limit) are pretty stress-free.

[huskerdont]

I do track-stand stops, and if drivers have the right-of-way and don’t seem to understand what I’m doing, I wave them through. It seems to usually work, and on the rare occasions where it doesn’t, I’ll go ahead and put a foot down if needed. I’ll only roll things if it’s completely clear. This is as much for appearances as it is for safety–I don’t want to add to the “cyclists always blow through signs” BS.

As for someone yelling at you, I wouldn’t take that as meaning anything. Idiots yelling from cars is like trolls on the Internet: you can’t take it as rational behavior that you need to pay attention to.

[Rootchopper]

Reminds me of signs on highways as you’re leaving New Jersey: Leaving New Jersey – Obey Local Traffic Laws .

These superfluous and idiotically placed signs are proof of a bigger problem. There are too many stops signs in Old Town. Ignored at best. A distraction at worst. Easier fix is to lower the Old Town speed limit to 15 mph which is perfectly appropriate for the area and ticket the crap out of cars and the few cyclists that speed. Also, install more yield signs in place of the stop signs.

[scoot]

@Rootchopper 130465 wrote:

Easier fix is to lower the Old Town speed limit to 15 mph which is perfectly appropriate for the area and ticket the crap out of cars and the few cyclists that speed. Also, install more yield signs in place of the stop signs.

I agree, although I believe it’s presently not legal in Virginia for any speed limit to be less than 25 mph on a public street.

In Great Falls MT, they have a grid with a lot of completely uncontrolled intersections. Primary routes have traffic signals and ROW at their other intersections, but the uncontrolled treatment is used for an intersection between two minor streets. There are no signs, either stop or yield, at those intersections. If two vehicles approach simultaneously, the one on the right has right-of-way. The idea is that everyone is supposed to drive slow and should be ready to yield if necessary. Something like this might technically work for much of Old Town, but it would be difficult. Alexandria gets a lot of visitors that wouldn’t know how to navigate such junctions, plus it would require a big culture change.

I do think they should turn Royal Street into a legitimate bike boulevard with ROW and traffic calming to discourage through-drivers.

[cvcalhoun]

@jabberwocky 130444 wrote:

My recollection for VA is that it says something like “motorists shall yield right of way to pedestrians in crosswalks” but also that “pedestrians shall not enter the road in disregard of traffic”. Which are, to an extent, contradictory.

I don’t see those as contradictory. Motorists are to yield to those already in the crosswalk. However, pedestrians/cyclists should not enter the crosswalk in the first place if there is a car coming. This avoids a situation in which a pedestrian or cyclist enters the crosswalk when it is too late for the motorist to stop.

[lordofthemark]

@scoot 130472 wrote:

I agree, although I believe it’s presently not legal in Virginia for any speed limit to be less than 25 mph on a public street.

I was told by the director of FCDOT that they could not lower the limit below 25MPH on public streets (exceptions for hospitals and school zones, and of course private streets such as in Reston Town Center, can be lower) But at BPAC (in the context of side discussion of lowering OT limts to 20MPH, I think) someone told me that would not apply to City owned streets in Alexandria, since they are not controlled by VDOT. I cannot find the relevant section of the Virginia code, so I am not sure.

[jabberwocky]

@cvcalhoun 130480 wrote:

I don’t see those as contradictory. Motorists are to yield to those already in the crosswalk. However, pedestrians/cyclists should not enter the crosswalk in the first place if there is a car coming. This avoids a situation in which a pedestrian or cyclist enters the crosswalk when it is too late for the motorist to stop.

The question is who has the right of way if I enter a crosswalk in such a way that a car has time to slow down and let me cross, but if they held the speed they were going they would hit me? I can argue that I didn’t enter the crosswalk in disregard of traffic (since they had plenty of time to see me and stop) but they could argue that I entered in disregard of traffic, since they had to change speed once I left the curb.

See, for instance: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2003-11-04/news/0311040307_1_crosswalk-enforcement-stings-state-highway-administration

Maryland has taken the point of view that, as long as there is room for the car to see and stop, pedestrian has the right of way (at least for the purposes of these stings). But they admit the law isn’t clear, and I’m not sure how much faith I would put in a VA cop interpreting it that way.

[Alcova cyclist]

@jabberwocky 130487 wrote:

The question is who has the right of way if I enter a crosswalk in such a way that a car has time to slow down and let me cross, but if they held the speed they were going they would hit me? I can argue that I didn’t enter the crosswalk in disregard of traffic (since they had plenty of time to see me and stop) but they could argue that I entered in disregard of traffic, since they had to change speed once I left the curb.

See, for instance: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2003-11-04/news/0311040307_1_crosswalk-enforcement-stings-state-highway-administration

Maryland has taken the point of view that, as long as there is room for the car to see and stop, pedestrian has the right of way (at least for the purposes of these stings). But they admit the law isn’t clear, and I’m not sure how much faith I would put in a VA cop interpreting it that way.

This is one of the exact points of confusion that causes problems. I interpret the Virginia phrasing to mean that a driver is not at fault if I leap in front of their vehicle just because I happen to be at a crosswalk, but that as a ped/cyclist I don’t have to wait until there is a completely clear stretch. In other words if a car is far enough away that they can reasonably see, react and slow/stop, then they are obligated to do so once I enter the crosswalk. Which is all well and good except that if they don’t, then I will die despite being in the right. The DC laws are much more explicit in this regard and match my interpretation of the VA law: Driver must yield, but with the caveat “No pedestrian shall suddenly leave a curb, safety platform, safety zone, loading platform or other designated place of safety and walk or turn into the path of a vehicle which is so close that it is impossible for the driver to yield.”” (2303.2)

Coincidentally, I almost got hit in crosswalks twice on the ride home last night. In the first case crossing the Rte 110 exit ramps onto Memorial Ave. (no stop sign for sidewalk traffic). I was following a pedestrian, but the car that was waiting for the ped pulled out once the ped was clear without looking to their right to see if anyone else was coming — luckily I was anticipating that. 15 seconds later in the crosswalk from the south side to the north side of Memorial, I very nearly got clipped by someone in the right westbound travel lane who barreled through after the driver in the left westbound lane had stopped for me in the crosswalk. Luckily, I also know that trick and was expecting it too.

[CaseyKane50]

@scoot 130472 wrote:

I agree, although I believe it’s presently not legal in Virginia for any speed limit to be less than 25 mph on a public street

I don’t think that is correct. Local jurisdictions can set speed limits under Article 46.2.1300, Section A.1. Whether they have the political will to do so, is another story. One example where speed limits have been set below 25 is in some school zones.

§ 46.2-1300
Powers of local authorities generally; erection of signs and markers; maximum penalties.

A. The governing bodies of counties, cities, and towns may adopt ordinances not in conflict with the provisions of this title to regulate the operation of vehicles on the highways in such counties, cities, and towns. They may also repeal, amend, or modify such ordinances and may erect appropriate signs or markers on the highway showing the general regulations applicable to the operation of vehicles on such highways. The governing body of any county, city, or town may by ordinance, or may by ordinance authorize its chief administrative officer to:
1. Increase or decrease the speed limit within its boundaries, provided such increase or decrease in speed shall be based upon an engineering and traffic investigation by such county, city or town and provided such speed area or zone is clearly indicated by markers or signs;

[lordofthemark]

http://www.virginiadot.org/info/faq-speedlimits.asp

Virginia’s General Assembly establishes statewide maximum statutory limits and has granted authority to the commonwealth transportation commissioner, who heads the Virginia Department of Transportation (VDOT), and to cities and certain counties and towns to establish speed limits that do not exceed the maximum allowed by law for highways under their jurisdictions.

So I am reading this as saying that the power is delegated to VDOT, but Cities (such as Alexandria) may set their own limits (it is not clear if certain counties refers to ones like Arlington that manage most of their own local streets)

[dasgeh]

We had the Commonwealth’s Attorney who covers Arlington (and most of NoVa IIRC) at an ABAC meeting this year, and, after a lot of hemming and hawing about the “disregard of traffic” language, she agreed that, as long as there is room for the car to see and stop, pedestrian has the right of way when crossing at a cross walk. She also agreed that stop signs on trails have no legal force in Arlington (VA passed a law that gives them legal force in certain circumstances, but a prerequisite would be the County Board passing a law that they have not passed). So all of those stop signs on the Bluemont have no force of law. We’ve been asking ArlCo to take them down, which is what led to the discussion that led to inviting the Commonwealth’s Attorney to the ABAC.

The other stop-signs-on-trails that I’m most familiar with are near the Memorial Bridge, which is all DC land (yes, both sides of the bridge), but the trails are administered by NPS. I believe those signs are also without the force of law, but don’t remember the legal intricacies in DC. Basically, I need to look up the part of the DC Code that defines stop sign. It probably (as the VA Code does, with the new exception) refers to intersections of “highways” or “roads” or similar, which trails don’t meet the definition of.

@scoot 130472 wrote:

I agree, although I believe it’s presently not legal in Virginia for any speed limit to be less than 25 mph on a public street.

I was on an APS committee that was told this by ACPD reps years ago, except that the speed limit in school zones can be lower (I don’t remember if it’s 15 or 20). It may be an issue of engineering standards?

[jcflack54]

Kenmore between Van Dorn and Seminary in Alexandria is signed for 15 MPH.

[Author]

Posts