Intersection of Doom story

[mstone]

@ShawnoftheDread 86234 wrote:

You know the police will just start enforcing the rule against starting to cross once the red hand appears.

A victory either way–people usually drive better when there’s a cop actually standing at the intersection.

[chris_s]

@ShawnoftheDread 86234 wrote:

You know the police will just start enforcing the rule against starting to cross once the red hand appears.

I don’t think that’s actually law. Anybody find in the Virginia Code anything about the red flashing hand? I do know that THIS is in Virginia Code:

Pedestrians crossing highways at intersections shall at all times have the right-of-way over vehicles making turns into the highways being crossed by the pedestrians.

[PotomacCyclist]

On a separate note, what about daily update videos of driver (and cyclist) behavior at the intersection, posted on a YouTube account perhaps? (Or Vimeo or another video service.) The account could be titled something like “Today, at the Intersection of Doom” or “Intersection of Doom videos” or something similar. It wouldn’t need to be every single day and it wouldn’t have to be the same person. (It would be quite a burden to expect anyone to be taking video every morning on their own time.) Repeated video evidence of typical driver behavior will provide a mountain of evidence that the intersection urgently needs to be redesigned and improved.

Each video could include the time, day and date, along with a brief description in the title. Examples:

“Intersection of Doom, Thur. 5/22/2014, Morning Rush (7:00-7:10 am)”
“Intersection of Doom, Thur. 5/22/2014, Evening Rush (6:00-6:08 pm)”

If there is a similar format used for these videos, then they wouldn’t need to be posted on the same account. It could be an extension of the existing meme on this forum. If the videos are posted on Facebook or Twitter, they could include a standard hashtag like #intersectionofdoom, which is already in use.

We could still have a forum thread that includes links to any such “Intersection of Doom videos” account or people can post links to their new videos, plus suggestions for the video titles and the hashtag.

Photos may not get through to many people, especially if they aren’t familiar with the intersection. They may think that it’s the cyclist or pedestrian’s fault, or it’s just people complaining about nothing. Video evidence is more convincing, especially if people see day after day after day of the problems.

All of this can take place alongside any other campaigns.

I probably wouldn’t take too many videos myself, since (fortunately) I don’t have to ride there. I only bike through there once or twice a year, and only on weekends.

[bobco85]

@ShawnoftheDread 86234 wrote:

You know the police will just start enforcing the rule against starting to cross once the red hand appears.

@chris_s 86265 wrote:

I don’t think that’s actually law. Anybody find in the Virginia Code anything about the red flashing hand? I do know that THIS is in Virginia Code:

Pedestrians crossing highways at intersections shall at all times have the right-of-way over vehicles making turns into the highways being crossed by the pedestrians.

As best I can tell, I didn’t see anything differentiating the flashing red hand from the solid red hand, so I would assume them to have the same meaning, making it law.

From Virginia Code § 46.2-925. Pedestrian control signals:

…Don’t Walk. – No pedestrian shall start to cross the highway in the direction of such signal, but any pedestrian who has partially completed his crossing on the Walk signal shall proceed to a sidewalk or safety island and remain there while the Don’t Walk signal is showing.

And, for clarification, Virginia Code § 46.2-904:

…A person riding a bicycle, electric personal assistive mobility device, motorized skateboard or foot-scooter, motor-driven cycle, or an electric power-assisted bicycle on a sidewalk, shared-use path, or across a roadway on a crosswalk, shall have all the rights and duties of a pedestrian under the same circumstances. …

[baiskeli]

@chris_s 86265 wrote:

I don’t think that’s actually law. Anybody find in the Virginia Code anything about the red flashing hand? I do know that THIS is in Virginia Code:

Pedestrians crossing highways at intersections shall at all times have the right-of-way over vehicles making turns into the highways being crossed by the pedestrians.

Ҥ 46.2-925. Pedestrian control signals.

Whenever pedestrian control signals exhibiting the words, numbers, or symbols meaning “Walk” or “Don’t Walk” are in place such signals shall indicate and apply to pedestrians as follows:

Walk. – Pedestrians facing such signal may proceed across the highway in the direction of the signal and shall be given the right-of-way by the drivers of all vehicles.

Don’t Walk. – No pedestrian shall start to cross the highway in the direction of such signal, but any pedestrian who has partially completed his crossing on the Walk signal shall proceed to a sidewalk or safety island and remain there while the Don’t Walk signal is showing. “

I presume a green walking stick man and flashing red hand are treated the same as words.

So walk means walk (or ride). Don’t walk means don’t start to cross into the intersection, but if you’re already in it, keep going.

EDIT: And one should ALWAYS read the thread before responding to make sure BobCo hasn’t already done so!

[bobco85]

@PotomacCyclist 86280 wrote:

On a separate note, what about daily update videos of driver (and cyclist) behavior at the intersection, posted on a YouTube account perhaps? (Or Vimeo or another video service.) The account could be titled something like “Today, at the Intersection of Doom” or “Intersection of Doom videos” or something similar. It wouldn’t need to be every single day and it wouldn’t have to be the same person. (It would be quite a burden to expect anyone to be taking video every morning on their own time.) Repeated video evidence of typical driver behavior will provide a mountain of evidence that the intersection urgently needs to be redesigned and improved.

Each video could include the time, day and date, along with a brief description in the title. Examples:

“Intersection of Doom, Thur. 5/22/2014, Morning Rush (7:00-7:10 am)”
“Intersection of Doom, Thur. 5/22/2014, Evening Rush (6:00-6:08 pm)”

If there is a similar format used for these videos, then they wouldn’t need to be posted on the same account. It could be an extension of the existing meme on this forum. If the videos are posted on Facebook or Twitter, they could include a standard hashtag like #intersectionofdoom, which is already in use.

We could still have a forum thread that includes links to any such “Intersection of Doom videos” account or people can post links to their new videos, plus suggestions for the video titles and the hashtag.

Photos may not get through to many people, especially if they aren’t familiar with the intersection. They may think that it’s the cyclist or pedestrian’s fault, or it’s just people complaining about nothing. Video evidence is more convincing, especially if people see day after day after day of the problems.

All of this can take place alongside any other campaigns.

I probably wouldn’t take too many videos myself, since (fortunately) I don’t have to ride there. I only bike through there once or twice a year, and only on weekends.

To elaborate on your idea, I think that the videos would need to show all of the following simultaneously for the best effect:
– the traffic light
– the pedestrian signal
– the crosswalk across Lynn (this would show pedestrians’/cyclists’ actions)
– the stop line for the I-66 off-ramp (this would show drivers’ actions)

In order to get all of these, the cameraperson would have to stand behind the SE corner of the intersection and face N/NW. Also, they would have to avoid any planes a la Hitchcock

That said, I am willing to volunteer to film some of the evening crossings with my ContourROAM camera.

[mstone]

@chris_s 86265 wrote:

I don’t think that’s actually law.

It is. There was consideration of changing this at the federal level, but that was shot down on the theory that it would be too confusing for children. (seriously) Especially now that crossings have such long countdown cycles, it’s something that really needs to change but it doesn’t look like there’s any chance of it happening anytime soon. (The current state of affairs is an easy way to blame pedestrians for getting hit in intersections, so why change it?) E.g., at the gallows w&od crossing at rush hour it’s not unusual for 60 or 80% of the cyclists to not even be moving before the countdown starts.

[jnva]

I posted this a while ago. I usually have my gopro filming my commutes.

http://youtu.be/T3y3tXt5DcU

[baiskeli]

@mstone 86302 wrote:

It is. There was consideration of changing this at the federal level, but that was shot down on the theory that it would be too confusing for children. (seriously) Especially now that crossings have such long countdown cycles, it’s something that really needs to change but it doesn’t look like there’s any chance of it happening anytime soon. (The current state of affairs is an easy way to blame pedestrians for getting hit in intersections, so why change it?) E.g., at the gallows w&od crossing at rush hour it’s not unusual for 60 or 80% of the cyclists to not even be moving before the countdown starts.

Change to what?

One solution to this problem at intersections of doom like ours is to install a bike control light (green, yellow, red) along with the pedestrian countdown lights.

[Steve O]

@Mikey 86241 wrote:

Do we plan a cross-in (kind of like a sit-in) non-violent protest. Get about 200 bicyclists and pedestrians to show up at the intersection at a given time say 8:00 and then have about 10 bikes cross single file slowly during the entire cycle. I figure we could clog up about 20 cycles. Could you imagine 30 min of no one turning right on red there.

That’s an interesting variation, although it’s really the “right on green” that I was thinking we would clog up, i.e., crossing Lynn St. I was actually just thinking of using the regular cyclists who queue up there already. But if some (like myself) want to cross back and forth for a little while, that could add some effectiveness.

It seems with the number of likes below we may be on to something. Let me start putting together a plan. Perhaps I’ll start a new thread specific to this.

Also, is it actually illegal to start crossing on the flashing red, or just a guideline? Does anyone know or willing to look it up? Certainly when we ride, entering on the flashing red is common, since we can easily clear the intersection in plenty of time.

[baiskeli]

@Steve O 86322 wrote:

Also, is it actually illegal to start crossing on the flashing red, or just a guideline? Does anyone know or willing to look it up? Certainly when we ride, entering on the flashing red is common, since we can easily clear the intersection in plenty of time.

It’s illegal. See above.

Obviously, the timing was designed with pedestrians in mind, not bikes. I think we should simply have two signals, one for peds and one for bikes, at that crossing, like we have elsewhere.

P.S. Interesting column in the Patch by Mark B. a few years back about how ACPD doesn’t seem to understand the law:

http://clarendon.patch.com/groups/opinion/p/matching-enforcement-to-the-law-in-crosswalks

[DismalScientist]

Bah… There should be separate signals for geezing pedestrians and those that are able-bodied as well.

[Steve O]

@ShawnoftheDread 86234 wrote:

You know the police will just start enforcing the rule against starting to cross once the red hand appears.

@mstone 86254 wrote:

A victory either way–people usually drive better when there’s a cop actually standing at the intersection.

It will also expose the hypocrisy of cracking down on cyclists/peds simply crossing a street vs. literally dozens of cars blocking the crosswalk, turning from the 3rd lane, right on redding w/out stopping, etc. I love the idea of videotaping. It would be great to show the police harassing the cyclists while cars in the background are breaking laws left and right.

Also, if the police want to show up, then we can just go back to our regular way of doing things and let them be there to help provide safety against the cars, as mstone suggests.

[PotomacCyclist]

FYI only, not legal advice, re videotaping:

http://www.martindale.com/family-law/article_MichieHamlett-Attorneys-at-Law_1229920.htm

According to this, there are only two main potential issues with videotaping from a legal perspective. If the video picks up oral communications, then it could be prohibited under wiretapping laws (unless all parties give their consent to the taping). This shouldn’t be a problem with video taken from a distance. There may also be an exception when there is no reasonable expectation of privacy (such as someone shouting in public).

(The other issue normally wouldn’t apply, but you never know. It relates to videotaping someone who is in a state of undress and that person has a reasonable expectation of privacy. Normally you aren’t going to be seeing half-naked or naked people at the intersection. Even if you do, would that person have a reasonable expectation of privacy? Likely not, at least if you are filming cars and bikes in a normal manner. In other words, you would still get in trouble for filming upskirt videos, whether or not you are also filming cars and bikes.)

[dasgeh]

@baiskeli 86323 wrote:

It’s illegal. See above.

Ugh, there you go again…

We’ve gone around and around on this before in a separate thread. Short version: it’s unclear.

Longer version, if flashing hand/counting means “Don’t Walk”, then it means don’t start. If it means something else, then it means something else. VA Code is silent, and their are rational arguments to be made on both sides. I haven’t seen any court opinions interpreting the silence.

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