Improvements to Banneker Park area of DC

[lordofthemark]

@TwoWheelsDC 165861 wrote:

I dunno if Eads is the best comparison, as there’s relatively little ground level retail and not much nightlife…

I’ve ridden enough similar bike lanes in crowded spots in other cities, and generally the “serious” cyclists just avoid those areas. Imagine if they extended the sidewalk in front of the Georgetown mall by five feet and painted some bikes on it…that’s basically what the Maine PBL is.

I doubt the serious cyclists would ride the tree root riddled sidewalk on the northside of Maine, with all its pedestrians. Yet not only have I ridden it (proving my unseriousness) but when I do I often see other riders on it (in fact the lack of room for safe two way riding is an additional disadvantage of it)

BTW if the 10 ft wide new sidewalks at the Wharf are as crowded as the narrow sidewalks on M Street in GTown, then the Wharf is going to be a huge win.

But we shall see.

[Judd]

@TwoWheelsDC 165861 wrote:

I dunno if Eads is the best comparison, as there’s relatively little ground level retail and not much nightlife…

I’ve ridden enough similar bike lanes in crowded spots in other cities, and generally the “serious” cyclists just avoid those areas. Imagine if they extended the sidewalk in front of the Georgetown mall by five feet and painted some bikes on it…that’s basically what the Maine PBL is.

This. I’ll give it a try, but I don’t care for the design of most PBLs. I am almost always turning left on 7th to get to I St, when I go that way, so driving my bike down Maine will make more sense anyway.

[bentbike33]

@lordofthemark 165858 wrote:

One thing that will make it different is that the street on the water side of the project will be open to cars (it will technically be a “woonerf” so that will be an alternative drop off area. Not sure if hurried uber drivers will want to deal with the delays of driving through a woonerf though.

Note the PBL will almost certainly be more useful for riders if a LOT of riders use it. I am not that familiar with the more heavily used PBLs in DC – the ones I ride most often, on Eads, are so devoid of riders at most times, its hard to blame the peds who use it. There are enough people who ride on Maine now (including on the north side sidewalk) that I suspect we should at least do better than that, even if we don’t get riders who now use the Case bridge.

I’ll definitely go back to Maine Ave from the Case Bridge as soon as there are 2 lanes of traffic going eastbound again instead of the current one debris-laden half-lane/half-construction site for eastbound traffic (whether or not there is a usable PBL). I hate the Case Bridge switchback and find it incredible that in the 25+ years since passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act, there has been no occasion before this to add curb-cuts anywhere in Banneker Park.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@lordofthemark 165862 wrote:

I doubt the serious cyclists would ride the tree root riddled sidewalk on the northside of Maine, with all its pedestrians. Yet not only have I ridden it (proving my unseriousness) but when I do I often see other riders on it (in fact the lack of room for safe two way riding is an additional disadvantage of it)

I ride this route 4 days a week and have never taken the sidewalk. I just ride on Maine, which is what I see many other cyclists (by “serious” I basically mean “not tourists”) doing every day. Does it suck? Eh, kinda. Would I rather deal with it and get it over with quickly than ride 5mph so I can dodge groups of peds taking selfies while standing in the PBL? Most definitely.

[lordofthemark]

@TwoWheelsDC 165861 wrote:

I dunno if Eads is the best comparison, as there’s relatively little ground level retail and not much nightlife…The Wharf is getting a legit music/entertainment venue, thousands of apartments, and like a dozen bars/restaurants in the span of a couple blocks, all within a few feet of the PBL.

My point about Eads is not the volume of peds, but the number of riders. When I ride it SB, I see maybe one or two riders at most going in the opposite direction (and while its harder to count folks going in the same direction, I see few of those). More riders in the PBL means more respect for the PBL from pedestrians AFAICT.

The PBL would for me substitute for riding on Maine from 9th to 7th (where I used to take Water Street). Its a short segment, and towards the end of my commute (inbound) so I would be willing to go slowly and do a copenhagen left at 7th to avoid riding on Maine (and its not like I love the vehicular left at 7th anyway.)

Westbound it will be a nice alternative to making the right on Maine, not being sure if there will be cars parked in the far right lane, having to choose between staying right to get to the crosswalk (or go up the path to Case) or changing lanes left to take the cross walk that way, getting stuck at 7th behind emissions spewing cars. And making that crossing.

I also expect it will be used by people biking to and from the Wharf.

[lordofthemark]

@TwoWheelsDC 165866 wrote:

I ride this route 4 days a week and have never taken the sidewalk. I just ride on Maine, which is what I see many other cyclists (by “serious” I basically mean “not tourists”) doing every day. Does it suck? Eh, kinda. Would I rather deal with it and get it over with quickly than ride 5mph so I can dodge groups of peds taking selfies while standing in the PBL? Most definitely.

You aren’t looking closely enough at the sidewalk. There are definitely riders not on CaBi’s, and not all those on CaBi’s are tourists. And while I usually don’t ride that sidewalk, a PBL wouldn’t have to be that much more attractive than the sidewalk to be very tempting.

I am also very much expecting that all the entertainment, and most if not all of the retail, will be on the waterside of the project, which will have the views, the water, etc. The NW side would be a very odd place to take selfies.

I have no doubt that people who find riding at under 10MPH for a block to be annoying will avoid this PBL (again, unless they are actually going to or from the Wharf) I would hesitate to judge it a waste of resources at this point. But we shall see, and soon.

[lordofthemark]

@TwoWheelsDC 165861 wrote:

I’ve ridden enough similar bike lanes in crowded spots in other cities, and generally the “serious” cyclists just avoid those areas.

Examples? Cause the only PBLs I have ridden in outside greater Washington were in NYC, including Manhattan (yes, on a CitiBike) and IIRC they were fairly heavily used, and not TOO many peds (and that was in NY, where people are not super inclined to obey ANY rules) but IIRC that was in the winter, so maybe not generalizable.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@lordofthemark 165876 wrote:

Examples? Cause the only PBLs I have ridden in outside greater Washington were in NYC, including Manhattan (yes, on a CitiBike) and IIRC they were fairly heavily used, and not TOO many peds (and that was in NY, where people are not super inclined to obey ANY rules) but IIRC that was in the winter, so maybe not generalizable.

In my experience, riding PBLs (1st, 6th, 8th, and 9th Aves…can’t remember if there were others) in midtown Manhattan is *maybe* preferable to riding on the freeway, but it’s close. Anyway, there’s a quasi-PBL along San Diego’s waterfront where bike and ped traffic are nominally given different paths, but peds just walk everywhere. Paris and Budapest also do a lot of Wharf-style PBLs in front of buildings where there is little separation from the sidewalk, and in touristy areas it’s inevitable that you run into a crowd standing in the bike lane or running across it to get a photo. Hell, even 15th street can be pretty bad and it won’t have nearly the density of people and pickups/dropoffs that the Wharf will have. And I think that, in a place where non-residents are a huge portion of the people at a location, no one is going to “learn” to not stand in the bike lane, and the volume of cyclists will just never be particularly high to make riding through there a smooth experience.

[lordofthemark]

San Diego

Like here ? https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7276044,-117.1781581,3a,75y,143.65h,89.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sdrCMMoU_2jJYOh9smE3TgQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DdrCMMoU_2jJYOh9smE3TgQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D107.81498%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e3

Note, that is right ON the water. The Maine Avenue PBL will not be on the water, but will be blocked by the buildings.

And I recall enjoying riding in the Manhattan PBLs, more so than taking the lane on Manhattan avenue, and I suppose at least as much taking the lane on Maine Avenue, SW.

[lordofthemark]

And guess what? It appeared this evening that at least one rider was already using the PBL. #dontwaitforribboncuttings #yesmainesucks #yesthereisaconstituencyforseginfra #yestherearenopedsyet #yesthishashtagthingisoutofcontrol

[Judd]

@lordofthemark 165890 wrote:

And guess what? It appeared this evening that at least one rider was already using the PBL.

Preview:
https://twitter.com/bikepedantic/status/913158212517601280

[bikepedantic]

i’m one of the ddot folks working with the wharf devleopers (and also the scofflaw rider from yesterday, tsk tsk), just wanted to confirm few things on the thread –

Work has started on the NPS stuff for Banneker Circle (which includes the world’s most anticipated curb ramp, and a more formal 10′ trail down to the corner of 9th and Maine, replacing the old ragged asphalt one). Public space (roadway) permit plans aren’t finalized yet, but bike lanes will go around the circle, and up/down from 9th St.

ddot does have a contraflow lane on our to-do list (but not yet designed) for G St from 7th – 9th, to open up that route option

Other related projects that I don’t know timelines on (and don’t have a lot of details to share yet) are Wharf Phase II, which will extend the cycletrack down to the new Water St (just west of the episcopal church, to connect down to the Titanic Memorial promenade), and a one-block northbound-only PBL on 7th, from Maine up to Eye, as part of the separate development going on there.

Further afield, the Virginia Ave trail/cycletrack, soccer stadium cycletrack, and the South Cap Bridge are some of the other facilities in work downstream from Maine Ave, so we’re hoping this facility works out, as it’s going to be a very important connection

[lordofthemark]

@bikepedantic 165944 wrote:

i’m one of the ddot folks working with the wharf devleopers (and also the scofflaw rider from yesterday, tsk tsk), just wanted to confirm few things on the thread –

Work has started on the NPS stuff for Banneker Circle (which includes the world’s most anticipated curb ramp, and a more formal 10′ trail down to the corner of 9th and Maine, replacing the old ragged asphalt one). Public space (roadway) permit plans aren’t finalized yet, but bike lanes will go around the circle, and up/down from 9th St.

ddot does have a contraflow lane on our to-do list (but not yet designed) for G St from 7th – 9th, to open up that route option

Other related projects that I don’t know timelines on (and don’t have a lot of details to share yet) are Wharf Phase II, which will extend the cycletrack down to the new Water St (just west of the episcopal church, to connect down to the Titanic Memorial promenade), and a one-block northbound-only PBL on 7th, from Maine up to Eye, as part of the separate development going on there.

Further afield, the Virginia Ave trail/cycletrack, soccer stadium cycletrack, and the South Cap Bridge are some of the other facilities in work downstream from Maine Ave, so we’re hoping this facility works out, as it’s going to be a very important connection

Oh. My. G-d.

Do you people really want to keep me out of traffic for my entire commute? 😎

[Steve O]

@bikepedantic 165944 wrote:

i’m one of the ddot folks…

Mr. Pedantic, you are welcome to post to this forum at any time. In fact, encouraged. Come to coffee club or happy hour and you will receive a complimentary beverage.

[dasgeh]

@bikepedantic 165944 wrote:

the Virginia Ave trail/cycletrack

What about Virginia Ave in Foggy Bottom? It’s the biggest waste of asphalt, and with the width, cars sometimes feel the need for speed. PBL/Cycletrack would be huge.

[Author]

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