Idaho comes to Delaware

[lordofthemark]

@Crickey7 166465 wrote:

You’ve made an argument for legalizing all rolling stops, not Idaho Stops.

That’s a talmudic quibble. No one is proposing legalizing rolling stops for cars, as there is no particular problem it addresses.

But if you want to suggest it, go ahead.

[LhasaCM]

@hozn 166470 wrote:

I take issue with the suggestion that bikes and cars treat stop signs the same now. If there are some studies that show that most cars do not stop at stop signs, I would be curious to see them.

My very, very brief research suggests that not completely stopping is a minority behavior at a stop sign. Certainly this is what matches my experience as a driver.

https://www.scribd.com/mobile/document/25779288/Observational-Study-for-Determining-the-Percentage-of-Vehicles-Completely-Stopping-at-an-All-way-Stop-sign-Intersection

This is quite different from the behavior of cyclists — at least of my experience of cyclist behavior.

To be clear, I’m all for Idaho/Delaware stops as I think that it would be in the interest of all parties to treat cyclists differently (cars don’t want to wait behind me at a 4-way stop to “miss their turn” to go, any more than they want to wait behind me when I take the lane). I just don’t think it is fair to say that drivers and cyclists are currently applying the same behavior when it comes to obeying stop signs.

My also very, very brief research suggests the opposite, which matches my experience as a driver and as a cyclist in DC – unless forced to do so by cross traffic or pedestrians, a large percentage of cars roll through stop signs. Maybe not as large a share as cyclists, but it’s pretty considerable.

You have an unscientific study of a random stop sign a few years ago by WTOP, where they found that only 6 out of 21 cars stopped. https://wtop.com/news/2013/08/wtops-stop-sign-experiment-how-many-people-make-a-complete-stop/ A similar anecdotal study can be found at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpRfUh1Dzlw in Philadelphia, where most cars rolled through an intersection with multiple stop signs (including one overhead) and a flashing red light.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/transport/2010/05/stop.html notes a few rather dated but more rigorous studies: a 1968 Berkley study where only 14 percent of drivers stopped at stop signs unless forced to stop by cross traffic (i.e., you don’t get credit for stopping if there’s a car coming), and an annual survey done (for 9 years) at an intersection in the late 70s and early 80s where the survey found only 3 percent of cars came to a complete stop at the end of the period, suggesting a change in behavior from when he first started the survey.

Even the self-reported “click poll” on a Chicago Tribune website 10 years ago only had half of the respondents say they came to a complete stop. (http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2007/02/who_stops_for_s.html)

[Steve O]

@hozn 166470 wrote:

I take issue with the suggestion that bikes and cars treat stop signs the same now. If there are some studies that show that most cars do not stop at stop signs, I would be curious to see them.

My very, very brief research suggests that not completely stopping is a minority behavior at a stop sign. Certainly this is what matches my experience as a driver.

Here are a couple of observational videos I took this morning. One from Georgetown. Watch the front wheels to determine if a driver is “stopping.” The half dozen or so cars that completely stopped or came very close all did so because they had to deal with some sort of cross traffic. The Metrobus was the only vehicle that completely stopped when there were no other vehicles at the intersection.

[video=youtube_share;hQXcyxdPJyc]https://youtu.be/hQXcyxdPJyc[/video]

[Steve O]

This one is from a few blocks away from hozn’s house: 16th St. & Patrick Henry Dr.. Again, observe the front wheels and make your own determination about how many of these cars are “stopping.” Use your own definition of stop and then apply the “foot down” rule and apply that. Being very familiar with this intersection, I think this video is typical of driver behavior. I also think this behavior is completely acceptable even though most of the cars do not come all that close to a “complete” stop. They are exercising due care before proceeding, which is what the Idaho Stop requires.
[video=youtube_share;pEbxeEbwUzs]https://youtu.be/pEbxeEbwUzs[/video]

I did not “cherry pick.” These were all the vehicles that came through the intersection during the time I spent videotaping.

[hozn]

@Steve O 166483 wrote:

This one is from a few blocks away from hozn’s house: 16th St. & Patrick Henry Dr.. Again, observe the front wheels and make your own determination about how many of these cars are “stopping.” Use your own definition of stop and then apply the “foot down” rule and apply that. Being very familiar with this intersection, I think this video is typical of driver behavior. I also think this behavior is completely acceptable even though most of the cars do not come all that close to a “complete” stop. They are exercising due care before proceeding, which is what the Idaho Stop requires.
[video=youtube_share;pEbxeEbwUzs]https://youtu.be/pEbxeEbwUzs[/video]

I did not “cherry pick.” These were all the vehicles that came through the intersection during the time I spent videotaping.

Ha, that’s pretty good

Ok, well, I’ll grant that (very) few of those were full stops, but I’d also maintain that those are not “yields”. And not equivalent to my experience for how cyclists would treat stop signs. But I guess another video of cyclist behavior at stop signs could help there.

[TwoWheelsDC]

Slightly off-topic, but I think automatic transmissions are a big factor. With a manual, it’s much harder to roll through an intersection, since you gotta slow down enough to get into 1st and pretty much stop to engage the clutch smoothly. Manual transmissions should be mandatory except for the disabled or those with a demonstrable need for an automatic.

[lordofthemark]

@hozn 166485 wrote:

Ha, that’s pretty good

Ok, well, I’ll grant that (very) few of those were full stops, but I’d also maintain that those are not “yields”. And not equivalent to my experience for how cyclists would treat stop signs. But I guess another video of cyclist behavior at stop signs could help there.

Momentum = mass * velocity right?

So if a bike weighs say 35 lbs, with a rider weighing 165 lbs, and delawares the stop sign at 9MPH, that is 200*9 = 1800.

If a Honda Civic weighing 3000 lbs, slow rolls a stop sign at 3MPH, that is 3000*3, or 9000, correct? Five times the momentum? And that is for a relatively light motor vehicle.

Would it be fair to suggest an equivalent momentum standard? say, no more than 2000 in the above equation? So the rider would could go no faster than 10MPH when she delawares. A driver of a Civic could go no faster than 2/3 of a MPH. Motorcycles and class 3 ebikes would fall in between based on their mass, and an SUV would have to go more slowly than a Civic?

I mean the above is not really practical, but if the goal is not practicality, but to establish theoretical equity among classes of vehicles, and show bikes are not being privileged, it would seem to work.

#MakeDelawareAVerb #DrivingABike #NoPrivileges #OtherthanPBLsOfCourse

[Steve O]

@hozn 166485 wrote:

Ha, that’s pretty good

Ok, well, I’ll grant that (very) few of those were full stops, but I’d also maintain that those are not “yields”. And not equivalent to my experience for how cyclists would treat stop signs.

It depends on how you define “equivalent.” I maintain that I exercise the same level of caution at a stop sign while driving and while riding my bike. I do not become some sort of raving maniac just because I throw my leg over a bicycle. Equivalency in my mind is exercising the same level of due care, which does not equate to the same speed. Since in a car I am approaching at a faster speed, I’m lower, I’m inside a box, and I have blind spots, I have to slow down more to be able to fully assess what is happening and make sure I can proceed safely. On a bike I can make this assessment much more easily and do not need to slow as much.
I call that “equivalent.”

[DismalScientist]

@TwoWheelsDC 166486 wrote:

Slightly off-topic, but I think automatic transmissions are a big factor. With a manual, it’s much harder to roll through an intersection, since you gotta slow down enough to get into 1st and pretty much stop to engage the clutch smoothly. Manual transmissions should be mandatory except for the disabled or those with a demonstrable need for an automatic.

This is why I accelerate from stop signs in second gear.:rolleyes:

[Judd]

You guys are going through pretty extraordinary lengths to justify rolling through stop signs instead of just saying that it’s physically harder to start pedaling a bicycle for a complete stop and you don’t like it.

[lordofthemark]

@Judd 166506 wrote:

You guys are going through pretty extraordinary lengths to justify rolling through stop signs instead of just saying that it’s physically harder to start pedaling a bicycle for a complete stop and you don’t like it.

I am trying to explain why legalizing the Delaware stop is good policy. And yes, one reason it’s good is that it makes riding easier, leading to more riders, which increases safety for several reasons.

People are responding because they are being challenged. I never find myself challenged for driving 1MPH over the speed limit, or for walking across Park Center Drive outside the crosswalk. Why is it terrible that cyclists act for both safety and convience, when drivers and walkers do the same?

BTW, personally I just about never Idaho reds, and stop at stop signs more than most riders I see. Despite needing the momentum more. I am not the poster boy for scofflaw riding. But I strongly feel that there is collective wisdom in what cyclists do, and it being illegal is a bad thing. Again a point that the Delaware State Police agreed with.

[Drewdane]

@lordofthemark 166508 wrote:

I am trying to explain why legalizing the Delaware stop is good policy. And yes, one reason it’s good is that it makes riding easier, leading to more riders, which increases safety for several reasons.

People are responding because they are being challenged. I never find myself challenged for driving 1MPH over the speed limit, or for walking across Park Center Drive outside the crosswalk. Why is it terrible that cyclists act for both safety and convience, when drivers and walkers do the same?

BTW, personally I just about never Idaho reds, and stop at stop signs more than most riders I see. Despite needing the momentum more. I am not the poster boy for scofflaw riding. But I strongly feel that there is collective wisdom in what cyclists do, and it being illegal is a bad thing. Again a point that the Delaware State Police agreed with.

Plus, from a philosophical standpoint, the idea of laws changing in concession to practical reality is generally a good thing in my book.

[Kitty]

@TwoWheelsDC 166486 wrote:

Slightly off-topic, but I think automatic transmissions are a big factor. With a manual, it’s much harder to roll through an intersection, since you gotta slow down enough to get into 1st and pretty much stop to engage the clutch smoothly. Manual transmissions should be mandatory except for the disabled or those with a demonstrable need for an automatic.

Oh man! If the manual transmission were suddenly mandated, imagine how many drivers it would take off the road! (Myself included.:rolleyes:)

Person A: “I dunno, do you want to just drive there?”
Person B: “Sorry, I can’t drive stick. I guess we’ll have to go by bike/bus/Metro/foot/shopping-cart-propelled-by-dachshunds…”

[hozn]

@DismalScientist 166505 wrote:

This is why I accelerate from stop signs in second gear.:rolleyes:

Yeah, exactly. I don’t think it is any harder to roll a stop sign in a manual. Just leave it in second gear.

[huskerdont]

@hozn 166704 wrote:

Yeah, exactly. I don’t think it is any harder to roll a stop sign in a manual. Just leave it in second gear.

Depends on the car, I think. With my Hondas, the gear ratio was great for that–far better than first, and in snow, I’d even start from a dead stop in second. But with my Subaru, unless I’m going above a certain minimum (varies depending a bit on the gradient), it could lug the engine or stall.

[Author]

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