Idaho comes to Delaware

[Crickey7]

If I never hear of Idaho Stop again, I’d die a happy man.

[dkel]

When I lived in Wilmington, Delaware in 2001, I tried bike commuting for about a week, and found driver behavior toward me as a cyclist to be so terrifying that I didn’t try it again until after I moved here. The Idaho laws, and now the Delaware laws, make it illegal for motorists to terrorize cyclists; that’s way more important than being able to roll through a stop sign.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@dkel 166353 wrote:

When I lived in Wilmington, Delaware in 2001, I tried bike commuting for about a week, and found driver behavior toward me as a cyclist to be so terrifying that I didn’t try it again until after I moved here.

Oddly enough, it’s the same in Idaho.

[Judd]

@dkel 166353 wrote:

that’s way more important than being able to roll through a stop sign.

I’ve biked in Delaware on four different occasions and have liked it each time. I didn’t experience any issues with driver behavior. I did some highway riding each time and for the most part the highways had shoulders that were also marked bike lanes.

Agree with dkel that the stop sign piece doesn’t matter. The biggest win here is the requirement to fully change lanes when passing, which is theoretically much easier to enforce than a 3 foot passing law. (Don’t know how prevalent this problem is in Delaware or whether anything is enforced anyway.)

[dkel]

@Judd 166356 wrote:

I’ve biked in Delaware on four different occasions and have liked it each time. I didn’t experience any issues with driver behavior. I did some highway riding each time and for the most part the highways had shoulders that were also marked bike lanes.

Cycling in Delaware has improved vastly since I lived there. Every time I visit there, it seems like there are more and more bike lanes. I don’t remember a single bike lane from the days I lived there, but that was quite a while ago now.

[lordofthemark]

I do like the Deleware stop. As an advocate having something 90% of riders do anyway be illegal creates problems. I also like that the Delaware stop is the less controversial version of the Idaho, and only applies approaching roads of no more than two lanes. But I agree the other parts of the law are quite important.

[Crickey7]

@lordofthemark 166363 wrote:

90% of riders do anyway

That’s not true, or at least you can’t prove it is. It certainly doesn’t match what I see.

[lordofthemark]

Treating a stop as yield, where the crossroad is one or two lanes? And there is no cross traffic, either cars or peds? At least occasionally? Probably higher than 90%. (I am excluding people on bikes who never leave the sidewalk)

And we usually don’t ask for proof of personal observations in thus forum. I know you dislike the Idaho stop in all its forms, illegal and legal alike, and I also know there has been some bad feeling in the forum lately, but I do think people are more persuasive when polite.

[hozn]

90% sounds about right to me. Probably higher. Every now and then there is someone that completely stops and puts a foot down at the stop sign even when there’s no traffic. In a car that is normal, but on bike it is weird. But that is pretty rare — cycling’s 1% . I always ensure that I can stop and I stop and yield to cars that get to their stop sign first; often they wave me through, sometimes they treat me like a vehicle and go ahead; I am happy in either scenario. But otherwise I do like almost all cyclists and roll through after making sure it’s clear.

[vern]

@hozn 166369 wrote:

I always ensure that I can stop and I stop and yield to cars that get to their stop sign first; often they wave me through, sometimes they treat me like a vehicle and go ahead;

I typically wave those cars through. I don’t want anyone to do me a favor. I want everybody to do what they have the legal right to do. The car beats me to the 4-way stop on Van Buren…I wave them through. In doing this I’m also thinking about the Predictable component of PAL. If everybody acts predictably we should all be safe.

[Steve O]

@hozn 166369 wrote:

Every now and then there is someone who completely stops and puts a foot down at the stop sign even when there’s no traffic. In a car that is normal, but on bike it is weird.

In a car, that is not normal. Unless there is cross traffic or pedestrians, cars never come to complete stops. Watch the front wheels and you’ll see. I think 3-6mph is about the normal speed at which cars go through stop signs.

[Kitty]

@Steve O 166386 wrote:

In a car, that is not normal. Unless there is cross traffic or pedestrians, cars never come to complete stops. Watch the front wheels and you’ll see. I think 3-6mph is about the normal speed at which cars go through stop signs.

Which has to be the internal combustion equivalent of a clipped-in slow-roll.

But yeah, while it feels like I’m more cautious than most of my fellow commuters, and try to be a PAL/WABA rep, I am a consummate scufflaw when it comes to treating stop signs as yields. I always slow down and look, but don’t put the foot down if the coast is clear–it feels safer to not loose all momentum when there’s a big ol’ car breathing down your neck.

I do like how this notion is expanding to other states, and is part of an inclusive package! I am not sure how they’ll enforce the honking thing though…

[Steve O]

@Kitty 166412 wrote:

Which has to be the internal combustion equivalent of a clipped-in slow-roll.

But yeah, while it feels like I’m more cautious than most of my fellow commuters, and try to be a PAL/WABA rep, I am a consummate scofflaw when it comes to treating stop signs as yields.

Treating stop signs as yields is what drivers do, too. Which is why I get annoyed when police require people on bikes to put a foot down, but allow drivers to roll through at 5mph. If it’s standard practice to allow cars to roll through at 5, then it should be for bike riders. If anything, the standard should be more stringent for drivers, since they are more dangerous.
I asked a police officer once if he had ever ticketed a driver for slow rolling a stop sign (as vs. blowing through one), and he said no.

[Drewdane]

Excellent news! At this rate, we’ll have national coverage by the year 3217!

[hozn]

@Steve O 166424 wrote:

Treating stop signs as yields is what drivers do, too. Which is why I get annoyed when police require people on bikes to put a foot down, but allow drivers to roll through at 5mph. If it’s standard practice to allow cars to roll through at 5, then it should be for bike riders. If anything, the standard should be more stringent for drivers, since they are more dangerous.
I asked a police officer once if he had ever ticketed a driver for slow rolling a stop sign (as vs. blowing through one), and he said no.

This is not my experience. –I have been ticketed for slow rolling a stop sign. While I agree that cars don’t always stop completely, slowing down to a virtual stop is quite different behavior than most cyclists, including myself, which is to (hopefully) slow down and look and treat it as a yield. Cars are expected to stop even if there is perfect visibility and no other vehicles are present. I never put a foot down, but the law doesn’t explicitly require you to do that if you stop, does it?

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