How Pedestrian Signals Should All Work or Why HAWK Signals Are Stupid and Deadly

[chris_s]

There are no HAWKs on Columbia Pike, I think you are thinking of Rapid Flash Beacons.

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[Judd]

@chris_s 153592 wrote:

There are no HAWKs on Columbia Pike, I think you are thinking of Rapid Flash Beacons.

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Oops. You are right. Rapid flash beacons is what I meant. And they suck.

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[dasgeh]

@Judd 153593 wrote:

Oops. You are right. Rapid flash beacons is what I meant. And they suck.

Yes, RRFBs suck. I’m coming to think HAWKs have their problems too. I was recently driving (EGAD!) on Hayes by Pentagon City Mall. There are HAWKs. Person 1 hit the button, got the walking person, cars got the red, all is good. But then Person #2 (in reality person #1 is like 10 people, then there was a gap, then there were 10 more people, but you get the idea) came up. At that point, the lights for cars had gone to flashing, so some lanes had started moving. But the pedestrians still thought they had right of way (and I think there was still a walking person). I stopped, but was honked at from behind, and the other lanes didn’t stop so the peds were caught in front of my car. Not safe. Sad.

[bobco85]

I’ve had a variety of experiences with RRFB’s. Most of my good experiences with them have come from crossing Shirlington Rd on the Four Mile Run Trail and crossing GWMP to/from the MVT, but in most other cases like crossing Columbia Pike at Frederick St and crossing the I-395 on-/off-ramps on Duke St, driver response has been rather iffy.

I have advocated for HAWK signals because they are supposed to be able to stop traffic so pedestrians can safely cross while keeping delays to a minimum (thus being more likely to be used by traffic engineers), but I have noticed that not every driver understands the signals. For example, drivers are supposed to treat the flashing red as a stop sign, stopping and only proceeding if the crosswalk is clear in front of them, but I see many drivers wait until the flashing red lights turn off regardless if there are people in the crosswalk.

@dasgeh 153617 wrote:

Yes, RRFBs suck. I’m coming to think HAWKs have their problems too. I was recently driving (EGAD!) on Hayes by Pentagon City Mall. There are HAWKs. Person 1 hit the button, got the walking person, cars got the red, all is good. But then Person #2 (in reality person #1 is like 10 people, then there was a gap, then there were 10 more people, but you get the idea) came up. At that point, the lights for cars had gone to flashing, so some lanes had started moving. But the pedestrians still thought they had right of way (and I think there was still a walking person). I stopped, but was honked at from behind, and the other lanes didn’t stop so the peds were caught in front of my car. Not safe. Sad.

The light for drivers should be solid red when the walking person is showing, and drivers still need to treat a flashing red as a stop sign as I stated before. If the pedestrians were in the crosswalk before the flashing hand, they have right of way. If they entered after, technically they would not.

I can’t tell what really happened, but it seems likely the 2nd group entered after the flashing hand was showing, which is what they’re not supposed to do. Also, I have to admit that I do the same as a pedestrian/cyclist all the time because I know I can make it before the light turns red, so I’m not in a position to cast judgments here.

[Guus]

The original Youtube link did not work for me. This one should: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wxiEGH0lqk

[mstone]

@bobco85 153626 wrote:

For example, drivers are supposed to treat the flashing red as a stop sign, stopping and only proceeding if the crosswalk is clear in front of them, but I see many drivers wait until the flashing red lights turn off regardless if there are people in the crosswalk.
[/quote]

You can’t fix stupid, but at least that’s a safe failure mode.

I’d argue that the sane thing to do would be to have the walk signal flash when the red light does, to provide feedback to both parties.

@Judd 153590 wrote:

I have to admit that I blew through a flashing [RRFB] and nearly hit a pedestrian on Columbia Pike when I first moved here. [RRFB]s do not exist in Southern Illinois and they certainly were not taught when I took driver’s ed so I was completely unaware that they meant that I needed to stop.

You don’t need to stop: the DOT put in a flashing yellow light specifically because they don’t want cars to stop (that’s why they specifically decided not to put in a HAWK with a red light). If you think that means they prioritize moving cars more than protecting peds & cyclists, you’d be right.

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