Hikers who REFUSE to move over even a little bit

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 66849 wrote:

Sure, if someone walks to the right of their lane instead of the left it’s nicer for everybody. .

I think we are getting hung up on language. To me the above IS courtesy. To me saying X is courteous, does not mean not doing X is rude. Courtesy is going beyond what is required. Trying to make it nicer for everybody is all I was talking about. And yes, I see lots of people do that.

[ShawnoftheDread]

https://www.google.com/search?q=squirrel&safe=active&rlz=1C1EODB_enUS510US510&espv=210&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=LuRfUomQIY-r4APxvIGQCA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=667

[mstone]

@lordofthemark 66886 wrote:

Okay, now we are getting somewhere. The danger point, in your view, it seems, is 10+ MPH, not 15MPH. And walking pace, which remains undefined, is not unsafe (for passing between peds on the edges of the trail). So we are somewhere between 4MPH and 9MPH? Depending, I presume on the rider’s skill, the maneuverability of the bike, the terrain, etc?[/quote]

I don’t know exactly where the danger point is, and I have no burning desire to find out. For me, courtesy is not trying to push the limit to find out exactly where it is. I really don’t know why you keep arguing about this when it is just so easy to slow down for a moment until there’s a safe opportunity to pass. If you’re going slow enough to pass without posing a danger to others you already know it (because you’re thinking primarily about someone else), and if you’re arguing about just how fast you can get away with, you’re probably being a jackhole.

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 66892 wrote:

I don’t know exactly where the danger point is, and I have no burning desire to find out. For me, courtesy is not trying to push the limit to find out exactly where it is.

Agreed. That makes sense.

I really don’t know why you keep arguing about this when it is just so easy to slow down for a moment until there’s a safe opportunity to pass. If you’re going slow enough to pass without posing a danger to others you already know it (because you’re thinking primarily about someone else), and if you’re arguing about just how fast you can get away with, you’re probably being a jackhole.

Forgive me. Since this is, after all, a biking forum, and the OP was posting about his experience as a cyclist, so its natural to discuss this from the POV of a cyclist and to assume my point was from my POV as a cyclist. I was in fact mostly thinking about this from my POV as a walker (though informed by my experiences as a rider). I have only gotten back into riding in the last two years, but have walked the trails of FFX county for more than 10 years. In particular I walk on the Cross County Trail a great deal. I do not claim to be the walking equivalent of this
http://talesfromthesharrows.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-ideal-cyclist.html and do not think walkers should have to be. But I do feel better, when I walk, following the widespread trail sharing advice of staying to the right, perhaps especially on the trails I walk on which are often not as wide or in as good conditon as the W&OD (which I have walked on occasionally, but not often). I feel like I’m being told that I’m walking incorrectly – that I’m the walking equivalent of a gutter rider. I do not think that is the case.

[Occasional rider]

@consularrider 66823 wrote:

He said he was riding about 8 mph. Don’t know if that was his impression or if he had a bike computer.

OP responding (I am a she, not a he): I have a bike computer. I was going slowly in part because the trail was somewhat crowded but also because I wanted to enjoy the day.

[mstone]

@lordofthemark 66898 wrote:

But I do feel better, when I walk, following the widespread trail sharing advice of staying to the right, perhaps especially on the trails I walk on which are often not as wide or in as good conditon as the W&OD (which I have walked on occasionally, but not often). I feel like I’m being told that I’m walking incorrectly – that I’m the walking equivalent of a gutter rider. I do not think that is the case.

If you’re going to keep arguing about this, please define your terms. When I see “stay to the right” as trail guidance, to me that means “stay to the right of center”. Pulling out the maths again, on our putative 5 foot lane, I put my 2′ self in the middle of the right lane and give myself 1.5′ on either side. That seems reasonable for all concerned, and what I see as normal positioning IME. It’s relatively rare to see people hugging the right side of the middle line, so I don’t think that’s what people are talking about when they talk about staying right. Since the middle-of-the-right-lane positioning seems to be the default, I take admonitions that people should move further right to mean that they should be less than 1.5′ from the edge. At that point, you need to start paying much more attention to where your feet are, to make sure you don’t stumble off what’s usually a several inch drop at the edge. To keep hammering this “move further right” meme ends up pushing pedestrians to tip toe along the edge, staring at their feet, which seems like a fairly sucky way to recreate. Yeah, there’s some midpoint betwen 1.5′ and 0′ away from the edge, but are we really having all this sturm und drang over a few inches of trail space? Math can help us with other trail sizes also. Let’s take a 6 foot sidewalk/trail. So my 2′ self walks in the middle of my 3′ lane and I get 6″ on either side. Seems reasonable for what it is. Out of lane cyclist pass leaves about 1.5′ (so I hope the cyclist isn’t going real fast, but on a 6 foot trail you need to watch the speed anyway). Even if the pedestrians glue themselves to the trail edge, there’s basically 0 margin for a pass down the middle, so why ask them to do that? Now the side-by-side case is an issue here (only 2′ available on the left), and it would be good for them to single up if someone is trying to pass (covered already because they’re over the midline). In practical terms I’ll often just pass in the grass in that kind of situation. Above 6 feet there’s sufficient room to pass side-by-side walkers, and on sidewalks less than 6 feet it’s likely someone will have to move or get off the sidewalk for passing so lane positioning is basically irrelevant.

I submit that the default mid-lane positioning is sufficient for all concerned, and courteous all around. If you want to argue against pedestrians hugging the midline, I guess I can agree that’s kinda sucky; but, it doesn’t really impact me (I can still pass in the left lane), and it’s not something that I find to be the norm (so I don’t think it’s worth all this drama if that’s the target). If you want to argue against pedestrians on the left of the midline, I already stipulated that to be antisocial, so we’re in violent agreement.

[Occasional rider]

@mstone 66772 wrote:

you should be leaving your lane to pass them, so it doesn’t matter if they’re taking the whole lane. if there isn’t enough room to take the other lane (due to oncoming traffic) you should just slow down and wait.

So I continue to hunt for these “rules” – official or otherwise. So far, nothing in Maryland law.

What people are describing as “rules” seem to be an amalgamation of safety, common sense, courtesy, and customary. However, they seem to be mostly “understood” and what I have been able to find varies as to any given situation.

For instance, here’s what I found on the bikearlington.com website:

http://www.bikearlington.com/pages/biking-in-arlington/bicycle-facilities/security-sharing/

It says nothing about moving into the oncoming lane in order to pass. And it says (emphasis added):

However, groups of pedestrians should form a single-file to allow bicyclists and others to pass.

The brochure (Two Wheels or Two Feet: sharing the way) says (emphasis added):

If walking side by side, be prepared to walk single file.

There is nothing about going into the oncoming lane in order to pass someone on your side of the trail. Just give them an “arms-length” distance. Whose arm? If the lane is wide enough to give that much distance, then it is ok to stay in your own lane?

So it sounds like my inquiry about the rules was destined to fail and even more, it revealed that many people actually don’t even know the “rules” that are customary, as detailed in the “rules” given by the organization that runs this very forum.

Not that it was my goal, but it turns out that the nasty pedestrian was actually wrong, at least in terms of the “rules.” And again, I do think it is perfectly reasonable to walk two-abreast. And again, my point was about being considerate of others – be they others who are walking, biking, dog-walking, skating, dancing, doing jumping-jacks, whatever.

[americancyclo]

I saw a nice middle of the trail pass this morning on the Custis. /snark Made me think of you two….

[ShawnoftheDread]

@Occasional rider 66920 wrote:

And again, my point was about being considerate of others – be they others who are walking, biking, dog-walking, skating, dancing, doing jumping-jacks, whatever.

Don’t get us started about people doing calisthenics in the trail. Please.

[DismalScientist]

@Occasional rider 66920 wrote:

For instance, here’s what I found on the bikearlington.com website: blah blah blah

We in Virginia are known for our Southern Hospitality. Once you go north of the Potomac, all bets are off.:rolleyes:

[Occasional rider]

@mstone 66828 wrote:

I think that it’s pretty darn rare that you don’t get an opportunity to pass out-of-lane. And if it is so busy that you can’t, then it’s unlikely that you’re going even 8MPH. (The last time it happened to me I got stuck in the middle of a fun run.) Again, I think it’s unreasonable to demand that everyone else on the trail voluntarily give up their right to use it the way they want, just so someone else doesn’t have to slow down for a few seconds here and there. his really isn’t a big deal, if you go in with a generous attitude and don’t get bent out of shape about slowing down.

OP back again: I didn’t demand it. I expressly said that I thought it would be considerate. And in my little fantasy world, far from DC, in fact maybe far from this planet, people are considerate. Sheesh. You’d think I was from the Midwest instead of NY/NJ.

[jnva]

Dear occasional rider,

I spend a lot of time on the W&OD every day, so I would consider myself a pretty regular rider. I also walk side by side on the path with my wife and kids. We stay to the right. Occasionally there will be a biker that makes a remark about moving over. I hate hate hate this. Bikes are the larger, more dangerous vehicle on the path and therefore have a greater responsibility to make everyone safer. Ride every day, not just occasionally and I’m pretty sure you’ll understand why I say this.

[DismalScientist]

@jnva 66936 wrote:

Occasionally there will be a biker that makes a remark about moving over. I hate hate hate this.

Perhaps you should take this up with the Friends of the W&OD. http://www.wodfriends.org/safety.html

[OneEighth]

@americancyclo 66921 wrote:

I saw a nice middle of the trail pass this morning on the Custis. /snark Made me think of you two….

You are a bad, bad man.

[Occasional rider]

@jnva 66936 wrote:

Dear occasional rider,

I spend a lot of time on the W&OD every day, so I would consider myself a pretty regular rider. I also walk side by side on the path with my wife and kids. We stay to the right. Occasionally there will be a biker that makes a remark about moving over. I hate hate hate this. Bikes are the larger, more dangerous vehicle on the path and therefore have a greater responsibility to make everyone safer. Ride every day, not just occasionally and I’m pretty sure you’ll understand why I say this.

Occasional rider/OP responding: I hear you. I really do. But from what everyone else is saying, based on these “rules” – you shouldn’t be walking more than two-abreast, so if you have spouse + kids, and are more than two abreast, some of you should be moving over. No?

No one wants an accident. Everyone wants to have a pleasant day. Now will following some mythical rules get you there, even if everyone knows them and obeys them to the T 100% of the time, or will being considerate and using common sense be more likely to get the job done?

Example: The rules say to keep to the right lane. I’m riding down the right lane and it is icy. Should I continue riding on the ice, putting myself in danger, or should I move to the oncoming lane, assuming it is safe to do so? I’ve broken a rule but I’m safe and haven’t hurt anyone else.

Example: The rules say obey all traffic signs. The sign says “dismount to cross.” Say – where the Clara Barton on-off ramp meets MacArthur. Say I’ve got a clear view and there are no vehicles present or approaching and no pedestrians. Remember – I’m living in a fantasy world. So I ride across. I broke a rule, but safely.

Contrast – crossing MacArthur at the intersection with Sangamore. Traffic coming onto Sangamore never has to stop. It has to yield to cars turning left from MacArthur, but we all know they would never see a bicycle crossing that lane. It is perfectly legal for me to just ride across that intersection but it would not be safe.

I vote for being considerate and using common sense.

[Author]

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