Help me with my wheel dilemma (what to buy)

[TwoWheelsDC]

I got these, never used, I’ll sell you for $125 for the set. They’re labeled as 29er wheels, but I’m fairly certain they’ll work just fine for you.

http://www.performancebike.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/mProduct4_10551_10052_1183999_-1

[ian74]

@TwoWheelsDC 166042 wrote:

I got these, never used, I’ll sell you for $125 for the set. They’re labeled as 29er wheels, but I’m fairly certain they’ll work just fine for you.

http://www.performancebike.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/mProduct4_10551_10052_1183999_-1

I think you just solved my dilemma!! I’ll send you a message

[anomad]

I have a loaner if you need one till you make up your mind or whatever.

You should be able to get away with a 32 spoke rear wheel even with a few things in your bag. I’d be interested to see why the eyelet pulled through. Is there oxidation in there? Was the spoke tension way out of whack? Do you normally run just one rear bag?

[Vicegrip]

Craigs list is covered in wheel set take offs. Like every 4th ad in the bike parts section. I bet you can fine a good set in a week or two. Stock wheel that come with most bikes are at best OK in relation the the rest of the bike. Bike makers know that most bikes never see 10K miles.

[Left Field]

@anomad 166046 wrote:

I have a loaner if you need one till you make up your mind or whatever.

You should be able to get away with a 32 spoke rear wheel even with a few things in your bag. I’d be interested to see why the eyelet pulled through. Is there oxidation in there? Was the spoke tension way out of whack? Do you normally run just one rear bag?

Quick question: I have been running one bag on one side for many years and never thought much of it. I never thought it made a difference; does it?

[anomad]

@Left Field 166055 wrote:

Quick question: I have been running one bag on one side for many years and never thought much of it. I never thought it made a difference; does it?

It puts more stress on one side of the rear wheel, which is already under less than ideal stress because the drive side spokes are shorter and under more tension. If you put a loaded bag on the spokes that are already under higher tension it exacerbates their weakness. I have popped a spoke this way and seen wheels loosen up unevenly by extended use of one full bag. I just run both bags and try to keep the weight evenly distributed. The bike rides better and the rear wheel is happy. Sounds like your set up isn’t causing a problem for you and that is great. May be a total non-issue for you and your rig.

[hozn]

@Left Field 166055 wrote:

Quick question: I have been running one bag on one side for many years and never thought much of it. I never thought it made a difference; does it?

That is an interesting question. I wouldn’t think it would matter; the vast majority of the force is just from the riders weight on the rear wheel. Spokes break when they became detensioned. A better fix for a heavier rider+gear combo, I think, would be an asymmetrical rim.

To the OP, I had a set of those Rhino Lite wheels w/Deore hubs. In my limited experience Shimano hubs aren’t great because they need maintenance (as you’ve found) and those rims are anything but light and single-butted (straight-gauge) spokes break more easily. But it is super cheap and will certainly last you awhile. If you want it to last longer, take it to someone and have them check all the tensions. This may indicate a rebuild is necessary, but better than having a spoke break. I broke my “no-factory” rule recently and had a spoke break on me after a couple weeks, but the hubs and rims are great, so I just rebuilt them — but wish I had just taken the time to mediately rebuild the and save myself buying new spokes and nipples.

I usually change my wheelsets out before they age out (because I like building wheels), but I had a set of Hope Pro 2 + Flo30 wheels that were still going strong after 20-25k and that was zero maintenance. That is not an unrealistic expectation for an all-condition wheelset that isn’t having the hubs fully submerged etc.

So, for excellent durability, I would probably recommend Hope Pro 4 hubs and any number of rims. Perhaps the asymmetrical Kinlin XR31 RTS would be a good value proposition.

But the Hope hubset is $280 and rims are around $140 and then $1/spoke. So not a very cheap option.

On the other hand, you can get a set of those rims with Novatec hubs (w/ EZO bearings) for $350, which is a great value. I can’t speak about how long bearings last in Novatec hubs (I.e. how good the seals are). I had a set that I used for 4k miles without any issues (now those hubs are on my son’s MTB wheelset), but those tended to be drier miles. Anyway, the bearings are easy to replace on Novatec hubs, so I think they would be a good option. I am building myself a set of those Novatec/Kinlin wheels right now (just finished lacing them), so I’ll be able to update on how they’ve fared in a year or so.

[Left Field]

@hozn 166058 wrote:

That is an interesting question. I wouldn’t think it would matter; the vast majority of the force is just from the riders weight on the rear wheel. Spokes break when they became detensioned. A better fix for a heavier rider+gear combo, I think, would be an asymmetrical rim.

To the OP, I had a set of those Rhino Lite wheels w/Deore hubs. In my limited experience Shimano hubs aren’t great because they need maintenance (as you’ve found) and those rims are anything but light and single-butted (straight-gauge) spokes break more easily. But it is super cheap and will certainly last you awhile. If you want it to last longer, take it to someone and have them check all the tensions. This may indicate a rebuild is necessary, but better than having a spoke break. I broke my “no-factory” rule recently and had a spoke break on me after a couple weeks, but the hubs and rims are great, so I just rebuilt them — but wish I had just taken the time to mediately rebuild the and save myself buying new spokes and nipples.

I usually change my wheelsets out before they age out (because I like building wheels), but I had a set of Hope Pro 2 + Flo30 wheels that were still going strong after 20-25k and that was zero maintenance. That is not an unrealistic expectation for an all-condition wheelset that isn’t having the hubs fully submerged etc.

So, for excellent durability, I would probably recommend Hope Pro 4 hubs and any number of rims. Perhaps the asymmetrical Kinlin XR31 RTS would be a good value proposition.

But the Hope hubset is $280 and rims are around $140 and then $1/spoke. So not a very cheap option.

On the other hand, you can get a set of those rims with Novatec hubs (w/ EZO bearings) for $350, which is a great value. I can’t speak about how long bearings last in Novatec hubs (I.e. how good the seals are). I had a set that I used for 4k miles without any issues (now those hubs are on my son’s MTB wheelset), but those tended to be drier miles. Anyway, the bearings are easy to replace on Novatec hubs, so I think they would be a good option. I am building myself a set of those Novatec/Kinlin wheels right now (just finished lacing them), so I’ll be able to update on how they’ve fared in a year or so.

I am extraordinarily cheap. On one bike i have Mavic rims which are indestructible. Currently i am running on the rims that came with the bike Abut 16,000 miles and i they are about dead. With that said, I never considered my panniers as an issue. At 20 lbs. I never thought they would stress a wheel.

[Vicegrip]

@anomad 166057 wrote:

It puts more stress on one side of the rear wheel, which is already under less than ideal stress because the drive side spokes are shorter and under more tension. If you put a loaded bag on the spokes that are already under higher tension it exacerbates their weakness. I have popped a spoke this way and seen wheels loosen up unevenly by extended use of one full bag. I just run both bags and try to keep the weight evenly distributed. The bike rides better and the rear wheel is happy. Sounds like your set up isn’t causing a problem for you and that is great. May be a total non-issue for you and your rig.

Hmm. I might want to see the mechanics of that.Just thinking out-loud and I am likely missing something but it is interesting to contemplate.

A bike COG is self correcting. Put a load on the right side. The bike and rider leans slightly left to restore the COG. Now the more load side of the hub is above the less load side with the slight tilt.
The spokes are doing the greatest % of their work when they are in the upper 1/2 of the wheel as it turns and mostly in the 11 to 1 o clock position. A wheel is a rolling suspension bridge of sorts.
Aluminum is a very handy metal but has almost 0 modulus of elasticity. Steel can be stressed millions of times under threshold and suffer no long term effects. Aluminum has almost no effective min threshold.
If the spoke tension was a bit higher than the ones to ether side it would put more stress on the nipple hole area of the rim. Another problem with aluminum is AlOx. When a micro crack forms aluminum oxide starts to form right away. AlOx is a bit larger and much harder than the metal it formed from and the micro crack will propagate. Add in road salts and things progress even faster. I suspect spoke tension relative to the others is very important. Drive side spokes are at a disadvantage from day one.

[ian74]

@anomad 166046 wrote:

I have a loaner if you need one till you make up your mind or whatever.

You should be able to get away with a 32 spoke rear wheel even with a few things in your bag. I’d be interested to see why the eyelet pulled through. Is there oxidation in there? Was the spoke tension way out of whack? Do you normally run just one rear bag?

I think it’s just wear and tear. I had this happen on my last bike too also around 9K to 10K miles. I was looking at the rim after cleaning it off and I would say that there were cracks forming around at least 6-8 other spokes. I didn’t notice if they were all drive side or not, but I’ll check when I get home. I’ve also only ridden always with just one pannier, it’s typically less than 10 lbs though, and I actually always have it on the non-drive side.

I took TwoWheels up on his offer and grabbed his wheels. I very much appreciate it too. I’m not sure if that was my best decisions, as with all things, I’m typically impulsive when it comes to getting things fixed and I want it done ASAP. So I guess I went with option “B” and bought the cheapest budget wheelset I could find. They are inexpensive but reviews from online are pretty positive overall.. I mean, my bike already weighs a ton so weight probably won’t matter. I suppose if I get another 10K out of them it’s worth it.

Alternatively, I might get something else sooner than later. I’d like it if the discussion could continue and I could get more suggestions though since I’ll probably continue making impulsive decisions in the future.

[hozn]

@ian74 166078 wrote:

I think it’s just wear and tear. I had this happen on my last bike too also around 9K to 10K miles. I was looking at the rim after cleaning it off and I would say that there were cracks forming around at least 6-8 other spokes. I didn’t notice if they were all drive side or not, but I’ll check when I get home. I’ve also only ridden always with just one pannier, it’s typically less than 10 lbs though, and I actually always have it on the non-drive side.

I took TwoWheels up on his offer and grabbed his wheels. I very much appreciate it too. I’m not sure if that was my best decisions, as with all things, I’m typically impulsive when it comes to getting things fixed and I want it done ASAP. So I guess I went with option “B” and bought the cheapest budget wheelset I could find. They are inexpensive but reviews from online are pretty positive overall.. I mean, my bike already weighs a ton so weight probably won’t matter. I suppose if I get another 10K out of them it’s worth it.

Alternatively, I might get something else sooner than later. I’d like it if the discussion could continue and I could get more suggestions though since I’ll probably continue making impulsive decisions in the future.

I’m a little surprised that a WTB i19 rim is failing. One thing that makes sense for the next wheelset is to use nipple washers. I always use them because they add minimal weight, provide a uniform nipple-rim interface, and provide some extra distribution of force (I’m just using round PolyAx washers, so not distributing force over a much larger area).

I think the more likely place you’ll have problems with the Rhino Lite wheelset is spokes breaking, as I believe those rims have eyelets (if I remember right) so they should be better protected from spoke tension. If spokes are not evenly tensioned or are under tensioned, then you’ll just break spoke(s). But it’s easy to check that. It’s pretty easy to do a check for uniformity without any tools: all the spokes on one side of a wheel should have the same tone when plucked. That won’t tell you if the tension is sufficient, though. But also butted spokes, being more elastic, do a better job of taking the abuse of a road and can stretch and compress without losing tension. The act of a spoke going in and out of tension is what breaks spokes.

Finally if you hear any pinging noises when you first put the wheels under weight, then definitely bring it to a shop to have it retensioned. That indicates spokes unwinding and will mean that tension won’t be even any more (assuming it was to start with). If they were built by hand, that shouldn’t happen.

[Steve O]

@Left Field 166055 wrote:

Quick question: I have been running one bag on one side for many years and never thought much of it. I never thought it made a difference; does it?

I’m not a physicist, but I have carried a single pannier on the right (drive) side of my bike (steel Fuji touring) for longer than I can remember – including 20+pounds of groceries on occasion. Yes, I recently toasted my rear wheel, but it was cheapo and had a bazillion miles on it. It was ready to fail regardless. And the day it happened I wasn’t carrying anything.

I’m with hozn in that I don’t think it matters. With all due respect to anomad who has actually experienced the opposite.

[hozn]

I’m also not a physicist, so my response was probably a bit too confident. In thinking about this with Anomad’s experience and Vicegrip’s reasoning, I wonder if while the COG is self-correcting that having a heavily weighted on side of the bike ends up putting more lateral stresses on the wheel while COG is being corrected — e.g. in situations like turns, etc.? Just also thinking out loud and happy to be wrong But certainly wheels are not strong laterally. (Though I’d think that’d be more likely to manifest itself in taco’ing a wheel rather than actually pulling through a rim, as in this case. So this particular failure may not be explained by this.)

[ian74]

Odd. I just checked, it’s a 36 spoke wheel, there are 9 spokes that have cracks where they enter the rim (1/4) and every one of them is on the drive side. How did this happen? I must be a torque beast putting out sick watts. I wonder what my VO2 max is.

[honestmachinery]

@ian74 166126 wrote:

Odd. I just checked, it’s a 36 spoke wheel, there are 9 spokes that have cracks where they enter the rim (1/4) and every one of them is on the drive side. How did this happen? I must be a torque beast putting out sick watts. I wonder what my VO2 max is.

I will adopt and care for any shimano hubs with used up rims. 10000 miles on a wtb rim sounds like pretty good luck. Angular contact bearings forever.

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