Hains Pt strava segment hazardous?!

[eminva]

@GuyContinental 49987 wrote:

information sharing/building (segment owners/”mayors”) .

Good ideas, Guy. Toward this end, I am declaring myself the “mayor” of the segment right in front of my house, Cottage Interval. As mayor, I want you all to know that there is a stop sign in the middle of the segment. I don’t think this makes it dangerous, but you should stop because it is a notorious stop sign trap for the Vienna Police who hide a cruiser just out of sight on the cross street, Oak. One of my neighbors got a ticket for not doing a full foot-dropping stop.

If I could note this on Strava I would.

Liz

[GuyContinental]

@creadinger 50022 wrote:

So just because idiots do stupid things you think all downhill segments should be banned?… I’m no daredevil and I would never risk a crash and do something stupid just for strava cred… It’s a wide road, mostly straight, no intersections = very low risk. What is the harm?

Yes, but others absolutely will, endangering others, the Strava platform and cycling access. As a guy in the VC community and from a purely business perspective I wouldn’t touch Strava with a 10-foot pole until they can figure out a way to separate your cool little hill from something like this:

http://app.strava.com/segments/799384

I happen to be intimate with this one from my college days and 40+mph (dropping ~1900 in 6 miles with 30+ blind hairpins and loose cinders) is “safe” only under super controlled circumstances (i.e the road is totally closed to oncoming traffic). 160 Weekend university student warriors going out there 440 times in downhill gear explicitly to challenge a KOM will get someone dead. Have people been riding it for years? Sure, but it was obscure and a target of the expert, now it’s some sort of “ya’ll come watch this” moment to watch on a GoPro and push through social media. I bet that pre-Strava it had been ridden maybe 200 times total.

So, I totally admit that that last bit sounds super-elite (lowercase) but I absolutely believe (and the numerous civil-cases against Strava concur) that the platform actively encourages this sort of reckless behavior. Is there a line somewhere? Sure, but I doubt that it’s as bright as my own “no net decline”. I also doubt that it’s as fuzzy as the temporary “hazardous flag.” Also, cycling is traditionally measured in feats of endurance (e.g. climbing, distance, sprinting) and only specialized events are based on descents. Helpfully, those “traditional” metrics are also *generally* safer from a user and bystander perspective.

[krazygl00]

@Subby 50004 wrote:

I guess I am just surprised that something like Gravelly Pt. is considered dangerous when you have completely clear lines of sight both ways. It’s actually one of the few MUP segments on my commute where there isn’t a blind turn or hill somewhere. There are even bail-outs on both sides of the path if someone goes full idiot. I would also be willing to bet that marking that segment hazardous does absolutely zero in reducing a-hole behavior there.

I mean really, you could make case for marking every segment hazardous. Heck, last week I fell over in front of my house while checking the mail (note to self: double unclip while checking the mail).

@Tim Kelley 50010 wrote:

Ever been there on a nice weekend spring day? You can barely maintain an 8 mph average weaving through traffic, much less a 28mph average.

As far as trying to rush it through Gravelly Pt. when it is crowded (and this is not directed toward anyone in this thread; just an adjacent thought), whether chasing a strava segment or not, just don’t. There are enough silly adults bumbling around the trail who sort of deserve what they get collision-wise, but usually they have kids who are just magnifications of their silliness. Little chips off the block(head)s! And THEY are really the only faultless ones in any of these equations.

Before I had kids, I would have said “well those parents need to keep their kids under control”, but now that I have kids, I’ve come to realize that even given the most responsible parents, kids are not robots or wind-up toys; they have lively wills of their own with limited world-experience to temper them, and are unpredictable even under the best circumstances. One may be totally in-the-right in a bike/child accident, but that’s not going to make you feel any better in the aftermath.

[jabberwocky]

I have no issue with DH segments. Most of them are safer than many on-street segments that go through stop signs and lights and such (which is a lot of them). Some guy created a segment a few months ago that uses a section of my commute home (which I know about because it gave me the KOM when he created it). It goes across Baron Cameron drive. The only reason I got it was because, since I ride it every day, I occasionally get lucky with the light and cross without slowing down.

For instance, look at the Fairfax County to smith switch segment on the W&OD:
http://app.strava.com/segments/2191132

6.7 miles, crosses (by my count) 8 at-grade road crossings. Every one of those has a stop sign, and a few are fairly high-traffic roads (Spring St, Crestview Rd).

[Tim Kelley]

@jabberwocky 50055 wrote:

For instance, look at the Fairfax County to smith switch segment on the W&OD:
http://app.strava.com/segments/2191132

6.7 miles, crosses (by my count) 8 at-grade road crossings. Every one of those has a stop sign, and a few are fairly high-traffic roads (Spring St, Crestview Rd).

And there are even worse offenders out there too! http://app.strava.com/segments/1396954

[GuyContinental]

@GuyContinental 5004 wrote:

Sure, but it was obscure and a target of the expert, now it’s some sort of “ya’ll come watch this” moment to watch on a GoPro and push through social media. I bet that pre-Strava it had been ridden maybe 200 times total.

I’ve never quoted myself before but I struggle a bit with expanding my rationale and defending the nature of “elite”- there is a definite trend in extreme sports towards greater access and “spectacle” and I’ve seen its impacts distinctly in two activities- rock climbing and whitewater kayaking. Back in the day (pre 1990’s) both sports were pretty obscure- gear was tough to get and frankly, dangerous, route/river guidance was spotty and practitioners held their info close to their chests- in part because they were crazy iconoclasts but also because they didn’t want to get others killed. Now both sports are really accessible with great user-friendly gear and insanely detailed guide books and online resources. Participation has increased dramatically as the “apprenticeship” period has been virtually done away with but bad things are starting to happen as a result. Thing is, gear and guidance increase the margin of error but particularly in these sports, a serious mistake is as likely to end in death as injury. Just go out to the VA side of Great Falls some warm Saturday when the river is at about 3′ and you’ll see what I mean. Really low-level people blithely “hucking” themselves off the falls and running lines with terminal consequences- having been involved in multiple serious rescues and a body extraction (not on the Potomac) I truly know things as an “expert” that they do not, things I learned through hard experience and in part because there were barriers to entry that extended that experience.

If there is a hypothesis in here it is that I think that social media (including Strava), by making it about the public competition lowers the perceived “barrier to trial.” now instead of feeling out a descent, learning your limits and becoming an expert, the threshold is set by others- now you know that it can be done at 42.2 mph, (or that the route is climbable or waterfall survivable) not because you’ve done it but simply because it’s been done. On the one side, this really encourages the expansion of what’s humanly possible (which is cool) on the other it can set artificial expectations for warriors way out of their depth- that’s where people get killed.

I agree that everyone has a right to be an idiot and the rest of our fun shouldn’t be limited by those outliers but still, there seems to be a spectacle effect going on in lots of sports and I’m a bit concerned about it. The least I can say for cycling is at least the idiot you kill is (usually) yourself, what happens in climbing is that your partner/team is screwed; in whitewater others end up in trouble coming to your rescue.

/ramble off

[GuyContinental]

@Tim Kelley 50056 wrote:

And there are even worse offenders out there too! http://app.strava.com/segments/1396954

Hypocrisy alert- I created a few of the long WOD segments (Lee to Church) because I ride the same dang thing nearly every day. It never occurred to me that people would “gun” for a 22 mile segment given the 5 major intersections and 28+ stop signs. Of course give a guy a 2nd or 3rd result because all the lights went in their favor they might just run them the next time…

[Tim Kelley]

@GuyContinental 50057 wrote:

I’ve never quoted myself before but I struggle a bit with expanding my rationale and defending the nature of “elite”- there is a definite trend in extreme sports towards greater access and “spectacle” and I’ve seen its impacts distinctly in two activities- rock climbing and whitewater kayaking. Back in the day (pre 1990’s) both sports were pretty obscure- gear was tough to get and frankly, dangerous, route/river guidance was spotty and practitioners held their info close to their chests- in part because they were crazy iconoclasts but also because they didn’t want to get others killed. Now both sports are really accessible with great user-friendly gear and insanely detailed guide books and online resources. Participation has increased dramatically as the “apprenticeship” period has been virtually done away with but bad things are starting to happen as a result. Thing is, gear and guidance increase the margin of error but particularly in these sports, a serious mistake is as likely to end in death as injury. Just go out to the VA side of Great Falls some warm Saturday when the river is at about 3′ and you’ll see what I mean. Really low-level people blithely “hucking” themselves off the falls and running lines with terminal consequences- having been involved in multiple serious rescues and a body extraction (not on the Potomac) I truly know things as an “expert” that they do not, things I learned through hard experience and in part because there were barriers to entry that extended that experience.

If there is a hypothesis in here it is that I think that social media (including Strava), by making it about the public competition lowers the perceived “barrier to trial.” now instead of feeling out a descent, learning your limits and becoming an expert, the threshold is set by others- now you know that it can be done at 42.2 mph, (or that the route is climbable or waterfall survivable) not because you’ve done it but simply because it’s been done. On the one side, this really encourages the expansion of what’s humanly possible (which is cool) on the other it can set artificial expectations for warriors way out of their depth- that’s where people get killed.

I agree that everyone has a right to be an idiot and the rest of our fun shouldn’t be limited by those outliers but still, there seems to be a spectacle effect going on in lots of sports and I’m a bit concerned about it. The least I can say for cycling is at least the idiot you kill is (usually) yourself, what happens in climbing is that your partner/team is screwed; in whitewater others end up in trouble coming to your rescue.

/ramble off

Lots of interesting points here that I would agree with. For me, I’ve found that I give it a good try and if it doesn’t work out then it’s time to move on. (For example: http://app.strava.com/segments/739916 Even though it’s a tie, I don’t technically get it in my KOM list.)

[JimF22003]

My favorite near-death experience at Gravelly Point was with a guy on roller blades and some ski poles like you would use with cross-country skis. Complete with pointy ends.

He stopped on the trail and pivoted off to the right to look at the airplanes with his poles tucked under his arms — so the pointy ends were pointing DIRECTLY at me like so many jousting poles… Missed it by that much…

[hozn]

@jabberwocky 50055 wrote:

I have no issue with DH segments. Most of them are safer than many on-street segments that go through stop signs and lights and such (which is a lot of them). Some guy created a segment a few months ago that uses a section of my commute home (which I know about because it gave me the KOM when he created it). It goes across Baron Cameron drive. The only reason I got it was because, since I ride it every day, I occasionally get lucky with the light and cross without slowing down.

For instance, look at the Fairfax County to smith switch segment on the W&OD:
http://app.strava.com/segments/2191132

6.7 miles, crosses (by my count) 8 at-grade road crossings. Every one of those has a stop sign, and a few are fairly high-traffic roads (Spring St, Crestview Rd).

You should have flagged that segment (if you did not). I just flagged the one you linked too. You are right. A segment that short should not include multiple stop-sign crossings. (I would not, OTOH, flag the segment that runs the length of the W&OD since I don’t think that is going to cause people to run lights.)

In general, I am happy to flag any sprint segments that go through lights or stop signs. There are plenty of great segments out there that are challenging without encouraging cyclists to do stupid dangerous (and illegal) things.

[hozn]

@creadinger 50022 wrote:

I don’t have the body to compete for strava top 10s climbing. So just because idiots do stupid things you think all downhill segments should be banned? For big guys like myself competing on fun downhill or flat segments is my only chance to get on the leaderboard. I’m no daredevil and I would never risk a crash and do something stupid just for strava cred, but knowing how I fare among others is really interesting. Right now I’m 1 second off a three-way tie for KOM on a mostly downhill segment in SE. It’s a wide road, mostly straight, no intersections = very low risk. What is the harm?

I wish there were wattage top 10s – I might have something there!

I guess I would suggest here that any segment that puts you over the speed limit to be on the leaderboard should be considered hazardous. I don’t think Strava should ban all negative grade segments, but I wouldn’t complain if they banned all segments of significant negative grade. They have already eliminated negative grade segments from the premium segment goal-setting feature.

No one needs negative grade segments to be competitive, unless the intent is to compete over high-speed bike handling and “daringness” instead of fitness. A flat segment should suit a non-climber body type just as well, no?

I think the more general point here is that people creating segments have a responsibility to ensure the competition they are encouraging is safe, considerate — and legal.

[Tim Kelley]

@hozn 50099 wrote:

I don’t think Strava should ban all negative grade segments, but I wouldn’t complain if they banned all segments of significant negative grade.

Including off road sections too?

[jabberwocky]

@hozn 50098 wrote:

You should have flagged that segment (if you did not). I just flagged the one you linked too. You are right. A segment that short should not include multiple stop-sign crossings. (I would not, OTOH, flag the segment that runs the length of the W&OD since I don’t think that is going to cause people to run lights.)

Meh. To be honest, while there are a lot of stupid segments on Strava, I don’t really see it as my job to play segment police. The reality is that the people who would blow a light across a major highway to get a pointless virtual trophy would probably be doing it without Strava anyway. Its not like those people suddenly came into being when Strava came onto the scene.

The reality is that any segment can be dangerous if people are riding aggressively to get KOMs. The real world isn’t a race track. It has stop signs and lights and other people who aren’t out there racing and dogs and kids and cars and… you get the picture. I’m fine with people making whatever segment they want, because its ultimately up to the people riding to ride responsibly.

[Mark Blacknell]

@GuyContinental 49987 wrote:

For me, I wish that Strava would pivot a bit from the 1%er KOM obsession and more towards community building (ride matching, grassroots competition tracking- e.g. BAFS) and information sharing/building (segment owners/”mayors”) and credibility (durable, non KOM accomplishments). The KOM plays a great aspirational role but is becoming less and less what it’s about for me.

I think Strava works pretty well as a social medium already, no? It has frequently turned people that I’d only know by kits/bikes into real names, and those real names into conversations. It’s let me ask others about roads I know they’ve been on, and certainly found me a lot of interesting rides. It’s also been a great way to keep up with/encourage/heckle friends around the world on their riding. I’m not a KOM/placing chaser, but Strava’s been a great plus for me (despite all of the dumbassery I think it *does* encourage).

One point of yours that I quite like, though, is the idea of identifying segment creators/owners. There are a number of segments out there that I’m pretty sure wouldn’t be created if someone had to own up to it.

(And like I do every time I talk about Strava, I always recommend checking out http://www.ridewithgps.com. Doesn’t have Strava’s app or marketing budget, but it has the best mapping out there, and is better for finding rides in new areas. Also trying very hard on the social side.)

[Mark Blacknell]

@jabberwocky 50104 wrote:

The reality is that the people who would blow a light across a major highway to get a pointless virtual trophy would probably be doing it without Strava anyway. Its not like those people suddenly came into being when Strava came onto the scene.

No, they didn’t all come into being, but I’m fairly confident that Strava expanded the pool.

[Author]

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