Hain’s Pt peleton rides

[jabberwocky]

@Steve 92256 wrote:

I think I’m just reacting to the Lance wannabee comment. I know KLizotte is reasonable, so I imagine they were pretty out of line. Just sometimes I feel like people really hate cycling for sport, always calling them ELITE, Lance, etc. There is something to be said about this as a great sport.

To be clear, I don’t really have an issue with using Hains as a training area, pacelining, sprinting, whatever. I just think the groups doing so need to bear in mind that its not their personal closed course. Its a public area. Lots of people aside from them use it. Sure, if its obviously clear, run the stop signs. If there are other users there, they should be more careful (its a stop sign for a reason, because there is an intersection there, and people might not be making a right turn).

Hains may be the best place in the city for that sort of thing, but that doesn’t mean they have the right to ride like asshats. What happens if they actually hit someone? A pack of cyclists going 25+mph can do a lot of damage to someone.

[vvill]

@hozn 92258 wrote:

“donkeys”

As long as it’s done in a Gordon Ramsay Scottish accent, yes!

I’ve been on both sides of the coin, but I side with KLizotte on this one and agree with jabberwocky’s points. The last time I was in one of the midday HP pelotons I got dropped after a few laps because I stopped at that intersection as there was traffic coming from Ohio north. (Well, partially. There’s no way it could’ve been because I couldn’t stay with the sprint group…)

I agree that the group there tends to be full of hard-charging testosterone racer types. There’s nothing wrong with that, but if you’re going to do it on open shared public roads, you simply have to behave like a road user. I have been passed when I was JRA out there and they definitely assume you will get out of their way, and if you don’t they may well get irate.

Given the usage of HP, it would be better if they
– banned tour buses (unrelated point perhaps, but this is one of the worst things about HP)
– they had a right turn only lane, and a straight lane

But it’s the NPS, so… yar. They could even have some sort of arrangement like Beach Drive does on weekends but that’s really dreaming.

@Steve 92251 wrote:

Our only closed road event as cyclists got cancelled this year.

^ This is one of the problems – given the usage, there should be regular scheduled closed road opportunities to ride.

In Sydney there’s an inner city park (Centennial Park) used similarly to HP, but they have a wide lane completely dedicated for cyclists/runners/bladers etc. that’s separate to the vehicle lane. (Not sure if HP is wide enough in all spots for this to be feasible.)

[83b]

@hozn 92258 wrote:

Half of those riders were probably in elementary school back when he was actually a cycling icon and the other half could care less about some washed up doper.

I kinda thought that’s what makes the insult brilliant! Associating someone with cycling’s greatest villain and an all-around objectively detestable human being…

[hozn]

I agree; they should have been more careful; they should have communicated better; and they definitely should have been at least slowing for that stop sign anyway (and maybe they were, but “slowing” can still be pretty fast). I do think people misascribe intention to that behavior, though; I’d assume that any cursing was probably more from surprise at coming suddenly upon a slower rider that was not riding in the same direction as the group — and not actual anger at this person for riding a bicycle in a law-abiding manner on public roads. Riding in the group requires a lot of focus on those around you; one relies on the people at the periphery/front to signal things and alert other riders that the group is passing them. Obviously this didn’t go as it should have, but I don’t think it’s fair to assume that all these roadies are asshats; they’re cyclists too and they’re likely all very accustomed to being the vulnerable parties on the road.

[mstone]

@Steve 92254 wrote:

Parades typically happen on closed roads. Group rides do not.

Actual road races happen on closed roads. If you’re riding like you’re in a road race, then you need to be on a closed road. If you’re not in a race but rather in a group ride where everyone is courteous and respectful to other users, stopping as necessary to yield to other road users, etc., then you’re absolutely right and there’s no problem being on an open public road. I guess maybe you need more clarity over what is a “group ride” and what is a “racing peleton”.

@Steve 92251 wrote:

That’s constructive. How does one buy a venue for pack riding on streets? Our only closed road event as cyclists got cancelled this year. So where do you think packs of people should ride?[/quote]

You buy a venue the same way that any other sport does it: you get a bunch of money and buy a big plot of land, and put in your own facilities. No it’s not cheap, but if you can’t convince the public to pay for your venue it would seem to be the only way to go to get a closed course. Look at this a different way: a lot of people like to race cars, does that mean that they should be able to do Indy laps at HP because there isn’t anywhere else in DC to do so? Maybe drag racing on the straightaways?

Quote:

I don’t even ride in these training rides, so I’m not sure why I’m defending it. I suppose that I would like to see sport cycling grow in the US. Part of that is training rides that happen on, oh my god, public roads. I’m not saying that they can do whatever they want, or cross the line all the way

I don’t know why you’re defending it either. If the cyclists at HP were all being responsible in their use of the public road, we wouldn’t be having this conversation and the PP wouldn’t keep getting complaints about them. The key is that you can have your ride, but you can’t treat it like you’re on a closed course. If the road isn’t empty ahead of you, you’re simply gonna have to ease off and yield the ROW to other lawful users regardless of whether it screws up your training plan.

[Raymo853]

@mstone 92248 wrote:

Well, most sports are played in the appropriate venue. A public road simply isn’t a place to be riding as though one is on a closed course. Maybe there should be a venue,

There should be such a venue in DC. I know it is a dream, but maybe it is possible to get a park with a road just for cyclists. Something like the Bud Harris Park in Pittsburgh. Ridden there and it is a blast. Sometimes it can get crazy competitive, seen lots of hands thrown, especially in the women’s crits.

http://pittsburghpa.gov/citiparks/cycling

[vvill]

@hozn 92264 wrote:

I agree; they should have been more careful; they should have communicated better; and they definitely should have been at least slowing for that stop sign anyway (and maybe they were, but “slowing” can still be pretty fast). I do think people misascribe intention to that behavior, though; I’d assume that any cursing was probably more from surprise at coming suddenly upon a slower rider that was not riding in the same direction as the group — and not actual anger at this person for riding a bicycle in a law-abiding manner on public roads. Riding in the group requires a lot of focus on those around you; one relies on the people at the periphery/front to signal things and alert other riders that the group is passing them. Obviously this didn’t go as it should have, but I don’t think it’s fair to assume that all these roadies are asshats; they’re cyclists too and they’re likely all very accustomed to being the vulnerable parties on the road.

It’s not really about being asshats or people with bad intentions. It’s just behaviour that is not safe or considerate to others, and as you say part of that comes from being a sizable group, going fast, and being close to peak exertion, etc. I feel that if you know that being in a big fast group is going to require more focus/attention/diligence then the responsibility weighs even heavier upon the group to ride appropriately. Instead they’re more likely to push harder, because that’s what training is all about. To be fair, a lot of road/racing group rides do the same thing in DC.

DC could really use a velodrome.

[sethpo]

@vvill 92271 wrote:

DC could really use a velodrome.

Yup.

http://www.dcvelodrome.org/about/

[vvill]

@sethpo 92273 wrote:

Yup.

http://www.dcvelodrome.org/about/

Yeah, I was once hopeful but that site hasn’t been updated in a while, and doesn’t look like it has much momentum.

[TwoWheelsDC]

I don’t know how I feel about the HP issue…I mean, I see the value for individuals and small groups to do intervals and things like that, but overall my instinct is to say large group training on the flattest area of the city is pretty lame. HTFU and go ride some hills. And it seems like most the people that we’re talking about drive in anyway, so just drive out to Poolesville and do your ride there instead….or at least ride out on MacArthur or something.

[consularrider]

@vvill 92262 wrote:

…Given the usage of HP, it would be better if they
– banned tour buses (unrelated point perhaps, but this is one of the worst things about HP)
…

Unfortunately, the designated parking lot for tour buses is HP, and that lot is well set up for tour bus entry and departure! The NPS would have to pave over some other area if we move the buses somewhere else, and I just can’t see that happening.

[vvill]

Yeah I can’t see it happening either. I don’t really mind them having parking there, but when the volume gets ridiculous and tour buses are doing loops slowly taking up both lanes so they’re not hitting the tree branches…. eeeuuggh. There are a lot of paved areas around there but they’re already designated for (car) parking.

@TwoWheelsDC 92279 wrote:

I don’t know how I feel about the HP issue…I mean, I see the value for individuals and small groups to do intervals and things like that, but overall my instinct is to say large group training on the flattest area of the city is pretty lame. HTFU and go ride some hills. And it seems like most the people that we’re talking about drive in anyway, so just drive out to Poolesville and do your ride there instead….or at least ride out on MacArthur or something.

The value of HP as far as training is replicating a crit really well (especially if blowing through the stop signs!), at least as far as I can tell. Obviously location-wise it’s great too.

[hozn]

@TwoWheelsDC 92279 wrote:

I don’t know how I feel about the HP issue…I mean, I see the value for individuals and small groups to do intervals and things like that, but overall my instinct is to say large group training on the flattest area of the city is pretty lame. HTFU and go ride some hills. And it seems like most the people that we’re talking about drive in anyway, so just drive out to Poolesville and do your ride there instead….or at least ride out on MacArthur or something.

There are big group training rides in the hills. That is the FB TNR. That is pretty controversial with the drivers — hence the police escort. I don’t think we want more of that, especially unescorted. And it’s not like riding in the hills is any more HTFU than HP intervals.

There are rides out Macarthur too. I do this once or twice a week. Large groups there would definitely enrage drivers and there are the same concerns with yielding to individuals doing their morning workouts.

[jabberwocky]

I think large groups could probably do intervals at Hains without being total douchecanoes. They might not get to go 100% full speed 100% of the time, and would need to work on communicating when they need to slow down or yield to other trail users, but its not like thats some sort of tremendous unsolvable problem.

[vvill]

@hozn 92283 wrote:

There are rides out Macarthur too. I do this once or twice a week. Large groups there would definitely enrage drivers and there are the same concerns with yielding to individuals doing their morning workouts.

Agreed, I think MacArthur groups + TNR FB loops have issues/controversy already too (that’s why I said “To be fair, a lot of road/racing group rides do the same thing in DC.” – it’s not a HP specific problem). I think some of it is rider education, since riders are often concerned with pushing hard and going fast, which doesn’t always mesh with open public roads. New riders copy what older/more experienced riders do. I’m still amazed at how many people I’ve seen on the FB TNR riding with earbuds in.

@jabberwocky 92285 wrote:

I think large groups could probably do intervals at Hains without being total douchecanoes. They might not get to go 100% full speed 100% of the time, and would need to work on communicating when they need to slow down or yield to other trail users, but its not like thats some sort of tremendous unsolvable problem.

Shorter intervals, yes, but crit practice perhaps not so much. My impression is that the groups often want to do race-like efforts for an extended duration (I don’t really know though, I’ve only ever done one crit)

[Author]

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