Hain’s Pt peleton rides

[Arlingtonrider]

I cede HP during the Thursday evening Peleton Prime Time. Any other day of the week, or even later on Thursday, is much better. There are few places in the area for people to train, and I’d rather have them do it there on a designated evening than on the trails. It was pretty mellow at HP by 7:30 last night.

[Steve]

I’m wtih Arlingtonrider on this. I know it can be irritating and the groups can perhaps step over the line at times, but there aren’t many places in the city that a cyclist could really train for that kind of riding.

Cycling isn’t JUST transportation for everyone. I know this forum tends to be pretty transportational cyclist focused, but cycling is also a sport. Just becasue people want to participate in the sport aspect of it, doesn’t mean they are Lance wannabees, any more than people playing basketball at the gym are Lebron wannabees. They are just people trying to compete at a sport. There’s nothing wrong with that. And, unfortunately, there aren’t really any/many facilities in and around the city that folks can participate in the sport. HP has become one of those places.

Again, not all behavior is excused, and perhaps this particular ride was over the line, but I do think HP should be a place where people can train and pacelines have a little bit of freedom.

[hozn]

I think the idea of people riding in a pack being “Lance wannabes” is a bit out of touch with reality …

This incident sounds very unfortunate, and I can understand your frustration since you were obeying the law and the larger group should yield to you, but there’s probably a little additional perspective here.
– It is unlikely that most of that group knew you were there until they were right on top of you. The people at the front probably saw you, but the people riding in the bunch wouldn’t have. Probably should have been better communication in that group, but a rider on the inside going straight and stopping (where most people turn and don’t even slow down) is understandably unexpected behavior.
– Large groups riding like that stay safe by acting predictably/consistently. Assuming they’re traveling 25+mph, the front riders deciding to stop or slow suddenly there could be extremely unsafe. Probably the people at the front should have started slowing down and communicating that back as soon as they saw you on the horizon; perhaps they didn’t realize how large/strung out the group was behind them.

My recommendation would be to get as far over to the left as you can if you are going straight at that intersection. It is a one-way road, after all (and most people are indeed turning right). I would also, if riding it alone, slow way down and get out of the way if a large group was overtaking me near that stop sign. I have never ridden in one of the massive peletons there; I’ve done smaller (~6-10 person) workout rides and yielding to the large groups has been the typical m.o. there.

In any event, I’m in general agreement with Steve and ArlingtonRider on this one. Hains Point is a great place for training rides and while it doesn’t seem right that individuals should have to yield to large groups, it is true that there are few other places where you can ride in a group like that around here. In contrast there is no shortage of roads or trails (or non-prime-time hours at HP) where you can ride in relative peace as an individual cyclist.

Of course, nothing excuses people being rude/swearing at you.

[bobco85]

I’ve never heard of the Hains Point peloton rides and am glad that I was not there last night when I went on my ride because I may very well have had a similar situation to the one described by KLizotte. In general, when I approach a stop sign, I try to be in the middle of the lane so that drivers behind me will see me, so there probably would have been an issue had I been riding there (I stop at that stop sign).

I understand and can emphasize with cyclists who don’t have many places to easily go to train on a professional level. Hains Point is an excellent (probably the best) place to do that in the DC area without having to head outside the Beltway.

That said, it needs to be ORGANIZED. I think this has worked really well for other large weekly rides like the Freshbikes rides.

Ideas for what they can do to reduce conflict:
– close off the left/outside lane of Ohio Drive since they will inevitably be going faster than everyone else and since there are multiple turns off the right/inside lane to parking lots
– station a person at every stop sign to help guide traffic since the peloton will likely be running every stop sign (scofflaws, the lot of ’em!)
– have a few officers from the NPS police to help oversee the ride
– communicate better to other cyclists (like in KLizotte’s case, the lead rider could have said something like “Passing, turning right”)
– remind all participants that they need to treat others with respect if they want to ride with the group

Having pelotons at Hains Point is okay with me, but they do not own the road or ROW over everyone else.

[83b]

@hozn 92223 wrote:

I think the idea of people riding in a pack being “Lance wannabes” is a bit out of touch with reality …

I dunno, I think that’s actually a quite mild bit of invective when aimed at this particular group. I’m pretty sure that under similar circumstances–a group of riders endangering me and having the gall to curse me out for it–I would have said something much worse. And said it at the scene, rather than bringing it here where a constructive conversation might take place.

To the rest, I think everyone agrees Haines Point is the best location for a weeknight training session that the city has, but that it doesn’t absolve the training group from all responsibility to act appropriately towards others. It seems to me like a mild public rebuke–something we’re all due for on occasion–might help the group regain the appropriate balance.

[kcb203]

I’ve ridden with the group numerous times, though usually at noon and not on Thursday nights. Typically, the peloton goes hard from the gate just past the entrance to the golf club around the bend and has a sprint 150 yards short of the stop sign mentioned above, then everyone regroups more slowly until reaching the gate again.

I agree that it’s the best place around for this type of training. In my experience, the group has tried its best to alert to slow riders, joggers, slow cars, etc., but adrenaline gets going and people sometimes fall short.

[Steve]

@bobco85 92227 wrote:

That said, it needs to be ORGANIZED. I think this has worked really well for other large weekly rides like the Freshbikes rides.

If it’s organized, people will then have to pay for police to escort the peleton on roads that they are already allowed to ride.

Riding in a group requires a permit. Driving in one is called traffic.

[jabberwocky]

@hozn 92223 wrote:

– It is unlikely that most of that group knew you were there until they were right on top of you. The people at the front probably saw you, but the people riding in the bunch wouldn’t have. Probably should have been better communication in that group, but a rider on the inside going straight and stopping (where most people turn and don’t even slow down) is understandably unexpected behavior.

Maybe this is an argument for not riding in giant pacelines on public roads? If it can’t be done safely (and almost hitting someone who was riding on a frigging public road in a completely legal manner sounds rather unsafe to me), maybe they shouldn’t be there at all.

@hozn 92223 wrote:

– Large groups riding like that stay safe by acting predictably/consistently. Assuming they’re traveling 25+mph, the front riders deciding to stop or slow suddenly there could be extremely unsafe. Probably the people at the front should have started slowing down and communicating that back as soon as they saw you on the horizon; perhaps they didn’t realize how large/strung out the group was behind them.

If suddenly stopping at a goddamn stop sign would create a dangerous situation, I’d say they are riding in a manner wholly unsuitable to a public road.

[mstone]

@Steve 92211 wrote:

I’m wtih Arlingtonrider on this. I know it can be irritating and the groups can perhaps step over the line at times, but there aren’t many places in the city that a cyclist could really train for that kind of riding.

Cycling isn’t JUST transportation for everyone. I know this forum tends to be pretty transportational cyclist focused, but cycling is also a sport.

Well, most sports are played in the appropriate venue. A public road simply isn’t a place to be riding as though one is on a closed course. Maybe there should be a venue, maybe you can get the rules changed to close HP to other uses and actually make it a venue, maybe the sport cyclists need to pass the hat and buy a venue, whatever–the lack of appropriate facilities doesn’t justify being asshats to other people using public spaces as designed.

[mstone]

@Steve 92241 wrote:

Riding in a group requires a permit. Driving in one is called traffic.

Um, no. Driving in a group is called a parade, and requires a permit. Driving amongst other people who all happen to be going the same way is called traffic, and the expectation is that each driver in traffic is responsible for following the traffic rules on an individual basis. You can’t have it both ways, pretending that the cyclists are not in an organized group and also claiming that they can’t break up the group or even stop or slow down because they’re riding too close together to safely do so.

[Steve]

@mstone 92248 wrote:

Well, most sports are played in the appropriate venue. A public road simply isn’t a place to be riding as though one is on a closed course. Maybe there should be a venue, maybe you can get the rules changed to close HP to other uses, maybe the sport cyclists need to pass the hat and buy a venue, whatever–the lack of appropriate facilities doesn’t justify being asshats to other people using public spaces as designed.

That’s constructive. How does one buy a venue for pack riding on streets? Our only closed road event as cyclists got cancelled this year. So where do you think packs of people should ride?

I don’t even ride in these training rides, so I’m not sure why I’m defending it. I suppose that I would like to see sport cycling grow in the US. Part of that is training rides that happen on, oh my god, public roads. I’m not saying that they can do whatever they want, or cross the line all the way, but I think some consideration should be given that they are trying to use this public (basically park) space to train. Running that stop sign for a right turn is, albiet illegal, a fairly safe circumstance. Many people do it, peleton or not. There is only one lane of vehichles that could enter that lane other than they cyclists, and they are coming from straight ahead. This gives LONG sightlines as to whether or not there will be a conflict. These training rides happen OFTEN on HP, and I don’t hear very much bad that comes of them, and have never personally thought there was anything wrong.

[jabberwocky]

@Steve 92251 wrote:

I’m not saying that they can do whatever they want, or cross the line all the way, but I think some consideration should be given that they are trying to use this public (basically park) space to train. Running that stop sign for a right turn is, albiet illegal, a fairly safe circumstance. Many people do it, peleton or not.

I’m not arguing that running that stop sign is by default unsafe (I don’t really care if people do), but the case in the OP absolutely was. KLizotte clearly had right of way. There is absolutely zero excuse for almost hitting her, and its frigging indefensible for people to swear at her while doing so. I’d be ashamed to be part of that group and be associated with asshat behavior like that.

If that group of cyclists was a car who did the same thing (ran a stop sign to pass a cyclist who had a legal right of way, almost hitting them) would people be defending them here?

[Steve]

@mstone 92249 wrote:

Driving in a group is called a parade,

Parades typically happen on closed roads. Group rides do not.

[Steve]

@jabberwocky 92252 wrote:

I’m not arguing that running that stop sign is by default unsafe (I don’t really care if people do), but the case in the OP absolutely was. KLizotte clearly had right of way. There is absolutely zero excuse for almost hitting her, and its frigging indefensible for people to swear at her while doing so. I’d be ashamed to be part of that group and be associated with asshat behavior like that.

If that group of cyclists was a car who did the same thing (ran a stop sign to pass a cyclist who had a legal right of way, almost hitting them) would people be defending them here?

I think you are right that this instance is indefensible. And your last sentence is a totally fair point, and I’m sure correct.

I think I’m just reacting to the Lance wannabee comment. I know KLizotte is reasonable, so I imagine they were pretty out of line. Just sometimes I feel like people really hate cycling for sport, always calling them ELITE, Lance, etc. There is something to be said about this as a great sport.

[hozn]

@83(b) 92232 wrote:

I dunno, I think that’s actually a quite mild bit of invective when aimed at this particular group. I’m pretty sure that under similar circumstances–a group of riders endangering me and having the gall to curse me out for it–I would have said something much worse. And said it at the scene, rather than bringing it here where a constructive conversation might take place.

Well, I was only suggesting that the idea of calling a roadie a “Lance wannabee” is quite quaint. Half of those riders were probably in elementary school back when he was actually a cycling icon and the other half could care less about some washed up doper. There are plenty of invectives that can be hurled toward roadies — “jackholes”, “donkeys”, or just “f’in roadies” are a few that come to mind as often appropriate.

[Author]

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