Guys – don’t shout at women

[dasgeh]

@baiskeli 161148 wrote:

Nobody said it is never sexist to yell at women, just that it is possible someone is yelling at a woman for another reason. If he also yells the same things at men….

You’re missing the point. So let’s try it from another angle:
There are bikes out there on the road. There are some drivers who don’t like bikes on the road, and drive aggressively. Sometimes it is overt — honking and close passes, yelling, etc. Sometimes it is less obvious (see BobCo’s W&OD crosswalk video from today). Sometimes it may not even be front of mind, but just drivers who have been brought up in a society that tries to push cyclists to the farthest right side of the road possible. So even when you’re on the 3-lanes-eastbound part of Lee Hwy, and the only people on the road are you and one car, that driver passes you IN THE SAME LANE, seemingly not even knowing that they’re being a complete a$$hat.

As a driver, don’t do that. Whether you’re thinking “UGH I HATE CYCLISTS” or you just want to go a little faster, don’t pass within 3 feet. Period.

[baiskeli]

@dasgeh 161153 wrote:

You’re missing the point. So let’s try it from another angle:
There are bikes out there on the road. There are some drivers who don’t like bikes on the road, and drive aggressively. Sometimes it is overt — honking and close passes, yelling, etc. Sometimes it is less obvious (see BobCo’s W&OD crosswalk video from today). Sometimes it may not even be front of mind, but just drivers who have been brought up in a society that tries to push cyclists to the farthest right side of the road possible. So even when you’re on the 3-lanes-eastbound part of Lee Hwy, and the only people on the road are you and one car, that driver passes you IN THE SAME LANE, seemingly not even knowing that they’re being a complete a$$hat.

As a driver, don’t do that. Whether you’re thinking “UGH I HATE CYCLISTS” or you just want to go a little faster, don’t pass within 3 feet. Period.

I didn’t miss the point. You did.

If that jerk driver cuts off motorists and buzzes pedestrians, not just cyclists, his behavior is not motivated not by a hatred for cyclists, but just because he’s a asshat. One can’t know for sure because you cannot read someone else’s mind and you haven’t followed him around to see how he behaves. That’s not fair.

Women have a serious problem with sexism on bikes and otherwise. No question. But assuming jerk behavior is sexist when it’s just jerkism doesn’t help solve that problem, it just distracts from it, as we’ve seen. I think there are plenty of good examples of obvious sexism to focus on without insisting that every single occurrence of jerkism that targets a woman is rooted in sexism.

Whether you’re thinking “UGH I HATE CYCLISTS” or you just want to go a little faster, don’t pass within 3 feet. Period.

Exactly. And as a cyclist, whether you are a sexist pig or just a pig to everyone, don’t yell. Same principle. That doesn’t change the fact that women are targeted more often and face more threats. That’s something we should all be aware of and work to fix.

[Tania]

@baiskeli 161155 wrote:

I didn’t miss the point. You did.

If that jerk driver cuts off motorists and buzzes pedestrians, not just cyclists, his behavior is not motivated not by a hatred for cyclists, but just because he’s a asshat. One can’t know for sure because you cannot read someone else’s mind and you haven’t followed him around to see how he behaves. That’s not fair.

Women have a serious problem with sexism on bikes and otherwise. No question. But assuming jerk behavior is sexist when it’s just jerkism doesn’t help solve that problem, it just distracts from it, as we’ve seen. I think there are plenty of good examples of obvious sexism to focus on without insisting that every single occurrence of jerkism that targets a woman is rooted in sexism.

Exactly. And as a cyclist, whether you are a sexist pig or just a pig to everyone, don’t yell. Same principle. That doesn’t change the fact that women are targeted more often and face more threats. That’s something we should all be aware of and work to fix.

From the article:

Let’s talk about sexism.

Resist the temptation to ascribe this rider’s experience to some sort of equal-opportunity jerkitude. Women make up about a quarter of the people who ride bikes in the region. That’s a problem for everyone. There are a number of systemic reasons for this imbalance, from social structures to infrastructure, but the entitled macho nonsense described above is a very real barrier to biking. Here are a few simple ways to avoid perpetuating systemic gender discrimination while riding your bike:

Don’t shout stuff at women.

Don’t ding your bell repeatedly, or snap your brakes, or sigh loudly at people going slower than you. If you’re late or bored or just want to go faster, wait for an opportunity to pass, announce your intentions politely, negotiate the space you need to pass safely, and do so without fanfare.

Don’t shout stuff at women.

Don’t assume that a person with a flat tire is clueless. “Do you have all the tools you need?” is a way to offer help without being condescending. Phrases like “You look like you need help” or “Do you know what you’re doing?” make unwarranted assumptions about competence.

Don’t shout stuff at women.

Don’t offer unsolicited advice: mechanical diagnoses, bike fit suggestions, clothing tips, whatever. If someone asks your opinion, fine. If someone is in immediate danger of hurting themselves, fine. “Excuse me I can’t help but notice your quick release is open and your rear wheel is about to fall off” is fine, “you’d be more comfortable if you raised your saddle” is not.

Don’t shout stuff at women.

^^^ just because YOU don’t do this or haven’t personally witnessed it doesn’t mean women don’t have to deal with it almost daily.

[baiskeli]

@Tania 161156 wrote:

^^^ just because YOU don’t do this or haven’t personally witnessed it doesn’t mean women don’t have to deal with it almost daily.

Of course not! I didn’t even remotely suggest they don’t. I acknowledged, more than once, that they do.

[lordofthemark]

@baiskeli 161155 wrote:

I didn’t miss the point. You did.

If that jerk driver cuts off motorists and buzzes pedestrians, not just cyclists, his behavior is not motivated not by a hatred for cyclists, but just because he’s a asshat. One can’t know for sure because you cannot read someone else’s mind and you haven’t followed him around to see how he behaves. That’s not fair.

And even if you could, that alone would not help. As I think the next part of your statement implies, there are drivers who are jerks toward bikes, and less (or not at all) towards other motor vehicles, WITHOUT conscious antiveloism. But there is subconscious antiveloism, which becomes part of the structural antiveloism of our society. And which is an important part of why we have fewer people on bikes than we might. Which makes it legitimate to just say “Drivers, do not be jerks towards cyclists” One doesn’t have to modify it to “Don’t be jerks towards anyone” because the problem being addressed is structural antiveloism, and there is no harm done in sweeping in the actual equal opportunity jerks (one presumes telling them to not be jerks towards cyclists will not cause them to be more jerky towards motor vehicles or pedestrians).

I think that logic applies equally well to gender. Except skins are thinner among some males, than among drivers in general. I suppose the occasional recreational bike ride most drivers have done helps with that

[baiskeli]

@lordofthemark 161158 wrote:

And even if you could, that alone would not help. As I think the next part of your statement implies, there are drivers who are jerks toward bikes, and less (or not at all) towards other motor vehicles, WITHOUT conscious antiveloism. But there is subconscious antiveloism, which becomes part of the structural antiveloism of our society. And which is an important part of why we have fewer people on bikes than we might. Which makes it legitimate to just say “Drivers, do not be jerks towards cyclists” One doesn’t have to modify it to “Don’t be jerks towards anyone” because the problem being addressed is structural antiveloism, and there is no harm done in sweeping in the actual equal opportunity jerks (one presumes telling them to not be jerks towards cyclists will not cause them to be more jerky towards motor vehicles or pedestrians).

I think that logic applies equally well to gender. Except skins are thinner among some males, than among drivers in general. I suppose the occasional recreational bike ride most drivers have done helps with that

I don’t think my comment implies that at all.

There are jerks who openly hate women (or bikes) – lots of them. There are jerks who subconsciously do but don’t realize it. And there are jerks who hate everyone. And we can’t know which is which – unless, of course, we have some kind of connection to their behavior such as yelling something specific to women, or bikes, of course.

My comment doesn’t in any way deny that women, like bikes, are disproportionately targeted, or are specifically targeted due to their sex either. Just that we can’t judge a specific behavior by a specific person on nothing but the actions of others.

[lordofthemark]

But the WABA article cited SEVERAL incidents. I think its fair for WABA to judge this as sexism even if its not possible to prove that each one was. WABA is not calling for criminal punishment of these acts (not that sexism is a crime in this context) – they are trying to get people to ACT better. I don’t think they need to do a statistical study for that purpose – likely examples are fine. Nor do they need to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. Its like when we give examples of bad driver or cyclist behavior in a PAL campaign – we don’t have to study to be 100% sure there was no justification for what appeared to be reckless behavior – we are just giving examples of what not to do.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@baiskeli 161155 wrote:

I didn’t miss the point. You did.

If that jerk driver cuts off motorists and buzzes pedestrians, not just cyclists, his behavior is not motivated not by a hatred for cyclists, but just because he’s a asshat. One can’t know for sure because you cannot read someone else’s mind and you haven’t followed him around to see how he behaves. That’s not fair.

Women have a serious problem with sexism on bikes and otherwise. No question. But assuming jerk behavior is sexist when it’s just jerkism doesn’t help solve that problem, it just distracts from it, as we’ve seen. I think there are plenty of good examples of obvious sexism to focus on without insisting that every single occurrence of jerkism that targets a woman is rooted in sexism.

Exactly. And as a cyclist, whether you are a sexist pig or just a pig to everyone, don’t yell. Same principle. That doesn’t change the fact that women are targeted more often and face more threats. That’s something we should all be aware of and work to fix.

Here’s how I think of it, and it’s possible I’m off the mark…men basically have the luxury of thinking about equality of human interactions in terms of the *input* to a system. Those inputs are behavior, language, etc…so as long as all inputs are equal/genderless (e.g. a cyclist yelling at a bad passer who happens to be a woman) then the interaction is “equal.” However, that’s not really how it works. The equality of the system is about *outputs*, and our inputs are just one variable among many. So while input x may be “equal”, there’s like 50 other pieces of the equation (like, say, the patriarchy) that tend to make the output of that interaction unequal and hostile to women, i.e. sexist.

TL;DR It’s not about “assuming jerks are sexist,” but rather recognizing that even not-overtly-sexist behavior can create sexist interactions. So yeah, don’t shout at women.*

*I don’t do much shouting on the trails, but I’m sure I’ve shouted at women before while riding and in a variety of other settings. We’ve all done it. Let’s just get better about it.

[dasgeh]

Remember those stereographic images that were all the rage in the 1990s? Do you remember when you first saw one and were like “what’s the big deal – it’s just a bunch of fuzz”. And then your brothers were like “no, it’s really cool, try this trick to see it”. And that didn’t work. Then your friend showed you a trick, and that didn’t work. Then your dad showed you a trick, and you saw it. And when you saw it, you were all like “whoa! that’s cool” and told all your friends who were still seeing fuzz about the trick that worked for you.

That’s how I see these conversations. There’s something happening, and some people just don’t see it. That’s fine. But those of us that do see it keep trying to give those that don’t see it tricks to bring it into focus. And I’m hopeful that each one of these conversations helps a few more people see it. But some people still don’t see it. That’s fine.

But when people start railing away that there’s nothing there to see, it’s really frustrating.

[baiskeli]

@TwoWheelsDC 161164 wrote:

Here’s how I think of it, and it’s possible I’m off the mark…men basically have the luxury of thinking about equality of human interactions in terms of the *input* to a system. Those inputs are behavior, language, etc…so as long as all inputs are equal/genderless (e.g. a cyclist yelling at a bad passer who happens to be a woman) then the interaction is “equal.” However, that’s not really how it works. The equality of the system is about *outputs*, and our inputs are just one variable among many. So while input x may be “equal”, there’s like 50 other pieces of the equation (like, say, the patriarchy) that tend to make the output of that interaction unequal and hostile to women, i.e. sexist.

TL;DR It’s not about “assuming jerks are sexist,” but rather recognizing that even not-overtly-sexist behavior can create sexist interactions. So yeah, don’t shout at women.

That’s a good explanation of why this discussion is happening, but it doesn’t justify labeling all yelling as sexism in my mind. To me, sexism is a motivation (conscious or not). To be accused of sexism is a bad thing that makes your actions different, and worse than just yelling. I don’t think it’s fair, or productive, to assume that any time a man yells at a woman it’s because he’s a sexist. That’s ironically sexist against men. It doesn’t help the cause.

Yes, it’s unfair that women get yelled at more because some men only yell at women. But I think lumping all actions into one motivation makes it harder to deal with them, note easier.

So to avoid going through a long discussion about this, I’ll just state my personal policies here and move on:

– I don’t yell at women.
– I don’t yell at men.
– I try to notice when I might be accidentally creeping out a woman by following her too long or whatever and avoid it.
– I look out for situations where women might need my help, such as in the dark or in a sketchy place.
– I look out for situations where men might need my help too.
– I offer help with mechanical issues when I think it might be needed to women, and try to actively signal that it’s not just because they are female (“got the tools you need?”)
– I offer help with mechanical issues to men too when I think it might be needed.
– I don’t ever assume I know what a woman or man has experienced in life.
– I don’t ever assume that I know what a woman or man is thinking, feels, believes or is motivated by. Every person deserves to be treated as an individual and to speak for themselves and not be judged by what others say or do. I ask others to do the same for me. (That, of course, is not just about cycling).

[dasgeh]

@baiskeli 161168 wrote:

That’s a good explanation of why this discussion is happening, but it doesn’t justify labeling all yelling as sexism in my mind.

Where is all yelling labeled as sexism?

[baiskeli]

@dasgeh 161167 wrote:

Remember those stereographic images that were all the rage in the 1990s? Do you remember when you first saw one and were like “what’s the big deal – it’s just a bunch of fuzz”. And then your brothers were like “no, it’s really cool, try this trick to see it”. And that didn’t work. Then your friend showed you a trick, and that didn’t work. Then your dad showed you a trick, and you saw it. And when you saw it, you were all like “whoa! that’s cool” and told all your friends who were still seeing fuzz about the trick that worked for you.

That’s how I see these conversations. There’s something happening, and some people just don’t see it. That’s fine. But those of us that do see it keep trying to give those that don’t see it tricks to bring it into focus. And I’m hopeful that each one of these conversations helps a few more people see it. But some people still don’t see it. That’s fine.

But when people start railing away that there’s nothing there to see, it’s really frustrating.

I hope you’re not implying that I am saying there is nothing to see, because I’m not. I’ve even made that explicit, more than once. And if you think that, then that just shows that you’re the one who doesn’t see what I’m saying. I feel the same way you do. I don’t think my comments are even remotely controversial. If you start with the premise that you can’t possibly be the one who doesn’t understand and it must be that the other person is wrong, rather than a discussion in which people make themselves more clear to each other, we all get nowhere.

[baiskeli]

@dasgeh 161169 wrote:

Where is all yelling labeled as sexism?

If you agree that not all yelling at women is automatically sexism, great. We agree on everything.

Let’s not have a long conversation about how someone said this but didn’t mean that and you overreacted, no, you misunderstood. I do that enough with my wife. Besides, I already said I’m moving on.

[lordofthemark]

@baiskeli 161168 wrote:

I don’t think it’s fair, or productive, to assume that any time a man yells at a woman it’s because he’s a sexist.

I assume that of all occasions when a man on a bike yells at a woman on a bike, 14% of the time it is conscious sexism, 53% of the time it is unconscious sexism, 20% of the time it is equal opportunity jerkitude, 10% of the time it is justified yelling, and the remaining 3% fall into “all other” (including involuntary yelling, internalized antiveloism, selfhatred by the gender questioning, and of course, antisemitism. )

[baiskeli]

@lordofthemark 161172 wrote:

I assume that of all occasions when a man yells at a woman, 14% of the time it is conscious sexism, 53% of the time it is unconscious sexism, 20% of the time it is equal opportunity jerkitude, 10% of the time it is justified yelling, and the remaining 3% fall into “all other” (including involuntary yelling, internalized antiveloism, selfhatred by the gender questioning, and of course, antisemitism. )

Cool. That’s all I’m saying (except I don’t assume percentages).

[Author]

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