Guys – don’t shout at women

[cvcalhoun]

@Judd 160953 wrote:

It’s kind of interesting that this thread has been dominated by discussion from the fellas. I read most of the comments to the WABA post on Twitter and Facebook and also the Greater Greater Washington post that was similar. This by far has been the most subdued of discussions. I’m wondering if more of the women forum members would be willing to share their thoughts and if the men folk would be willing to just listen and/or withhold responses that disagree with how someone feels or how they interpret an experience.

Out of curiosity, I took a look at who I am following on Strava. I follow 101 people, 37 of whom are women, so about 37% of my cycling friends are women, which is a good bit better than the 24% of cyclists who are women as WABA states. I’m not sure if this makes me totally enlightened or a total creeper for following a disproportionate share of women.

For what it’s worth, I figured initially that the daily harassment I get (e.g., being told, “Get off the street!” and “Get off the sidewalk!”, often by different people on the same trip) was just jerk behavior. But in comparing notes with male cyclists, I learned that they get a LOT less of it. I don’t know whether this is because drivers assume women are more stupid and in need of “correction,” or whether it is because they think they are more likely to get beat up if they yell rude things at male cyclists. But it is clear that women face even types of harassment that aren’t clearly sexual much more than men do.

[Steve O]

This thread was top of mind today when I encountered a rider who had stopped on the Rosslyn hill and was staring at her bike. No, I didn’t yell at her, but I stopped to see if I could help. It was a simple fix (she had overshifted her derailleur and the chain had gotten stuck). I was as respectful and kind as I’m capable of (shut up, everyone), but I just don’t know if the fact that I waited until she was up and riding along might be considered demeaning or not. She told me I could go ahead (she had to walk up the hill a bit to get to a flatter spot), but I waited anyway. I’m not sure if I would have with a man.

It seems like a tricky line to tread: did I unintentionally make her feel like a stupid, helpless woman? Or not?

Is just the fact that I was a man helping out a woman create a sexist dynamic a priori?

[dkel]

@Steve O 160960 wrote:

I was as respectful and kind as I’m capable of (shut up, everyone)

I’ll just leave this excerpt here for everyone to interpret for themselves.

[Rootchopper]

It is an unwritten rule of bike commuting and bike touring: if you see someone who appears to be having mechanical, physical, or other problems, ask them if they need help. This is simple human kindness. If they say “Yes” stop and help them. Help them change their tire, give them a tube if necessary. Fix their chain. Give them directions. Or water. Or a ride home (happened to me after a crash). Making sure they get underway safely ensures that you didn’t screw up the tire installation or the chain fix or they took a wrong turn.

If in the course of doing any of this, you act like an asshat, this could be a one-time social glitch. Stuff happens. Alternatively, you could just be an asshat. (This is all for purposes of discussion, Steve. You are not an asshat.) If you are an asshat, you are probably unaware of this. Thus, the WABA article is intended for you.

I hope that the WABA article doesn’t get misconstrued. We all need help now and then. Just be nice. Odds are, you’re going to need help someday.

[streetsmarts]

@Judd 160953 wrote:

It’s kind of interesting that this thread has been dominated by discussion from the fellas. I read most of the comments to the WABA post on Twitter and Facebook and also the Greater Greater Washington post that was similar. This by far has been the most subdued of discussions. I’m wondering if more of the women forum members would be willing to share their thoughts and if the men folk would be willing to just listen and/or withhold responses that disagree with how someone feels or how they interpret an experience.

Out of curiosity, I took a look at who I am following on Strava. I follow 101 people, 37 of whom are women, so about 37% of my cycling friends are women, which is a good bit better than the 24% of cyclists who are women as WABA states. I’m not sure if this makes me totally enlightened or a total creeper for following a disproportionate share of women.

Thanks for asking Judd. Nothing specifically sexist comes to mind for me. I’m part of Women & Bicycles group on FB. Wish I could share experiences of some women there. They’ve been followed (on bike), grabbed and subject to rude comments while riding etc.

I’m fortunate to have male riders in my circle of friends, who treat me and others well, regardless of gender.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[komorebi]

@Judd 160953 wrote:

I’m wondering if more of the women forum members would be willing to share their thoughts

Here’s a summary of my experience as a female cyclist:
— The overtly sexist behavior — catcalls, leering, being told that I should smile more — has come from male drivers and pedestrians, not cyclists.
— I’ve encountered plenty of rude male cyclists, but it’s hard to tell whether they’re being rude because I’m a woman or because they’re rude to everyone. At least a few of them are equal-opportunity jerks, because I saw them do the same no-call passes to the male pedestrians or cyclists in front of me.
— Nonetheless, I suspect — but can’t verify — that I get shoaled or aggressively passed more often than my male cycling friends.
— I can think of only one instance where a male cyclist said something to me that he probably wouldn’t have said to a man. He told me to raise my seat. At least he had the sense to back off quickly when I explained to him that raising my seat would aggravate an existing back injury.
— When I’ve needed help on the trail, the male and female cyclists who stopped all offered help in a matter-of-fact way, without being condescending. And believe me, I appreciated the assistance! So men reading this, don’t hesitate to offer to help. But please don’t assume that the person is incompetent, either.

Reading the comments on Facebook and GGW made me reflect on a recent situation where I shouted at a female cyclist based on gender assumptions. Does this make me sexist?

The scenario: I was riding southbound on the MVT, going slowly because there were two slow cyclists in front of me and an upcoming curve that prevented me from seeing whether I could pass safely. In my helmet mirror, I saw a cyclist coming up fast behind me and moving into the other lane to pass. I shouted “Blind corner! Don’t pass!” at her. She didn’t listen and passed all three of us anyway. Thankfully, there was no oncoming traffic so no one got hurt.

If the passer had been a MAMIL, I probably would have done my usual disapproving head shake but not said anything. Those kinds of MAMILs are too self-absorbed to listen to anyone else, and I hate hate hate confrontation, so why waste my breath? But I felt freer to call out her behavior because I figured she was more likely to listen to another woman. If a man had shouted the same thing, she might have brushed it off as mansplaining. It didn’t work in this particular instance: in the four miles that I rode behind her, I saw her pull two more blind-curve passes and one up-the-middle pass. But I’m living proof that calling out bad behavior on the trail does work sometimes. Back when I was a clueless newbie cyclist, I pulled a bad pass, and the oncoming cyclist gave me a head shake and a reproving “Really?” I’ve been conscientious about my passes ever since.

[komorebi]

@Rootchopper 160955 wrote:

I thought the same thing when Nelle Pierson used the statistic a few times. Then on my 15 mile ride home I counted. I did this three days in a row. Until I saw 100 cyclists each day. 24, 25, 24. Hard for me to argue with that.

I did a similar unofficial experiment back in 2015, counting the male and female cyclists I saw on my morning commutes between September 1 and December 4. (I stopped in December because at that point, everyone was bundled up and it was hard to quickly determine gender.) The percentage of female cyclists ranged from 12.1% to 47.6% on any given day, but the average percentage across all days came out to exactly 24%.

[AFHokie]

@komorebi 160970 wrote:

I did a similar unofficial experiment back in 2015, counting the male and female cyclists I saw on my morning commutes between September 1 and December 4. (I stopped in December because at that point, everyone was bundled up and it was hard to quickly determine gender.) The percentage of female cyclists ranged from 12.1% to 47.6% on any given day, but the average percentage across all days came out to exactly 24%.

I would do this survey as well, but I dont have enough. fingers to both count with and hold onto my handlebars at the same time

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930AZ using Tapatalk

[Vicegrip]

I have been going along in my ignorant bliss fully unaware about required gender compensations when passing people or asking folks on the side of the trail if they need a hand. “On yer left” and “You OK?” is universal in my playbook. Seems that how some folks interpret my utterances is not. It is hard not to assign a reason to others. It is often hard to be correct in other peoples reasons. Jerks accepted. A pass with no call is just that until further info is obtained.

Real wonder, not a troll question. Is going too gender neutral in and of itself being overly gender focused?
I often but not always say “Gooooood morning ladies.” rather than a bell ding to the 6 pack of ladies that frequently jog together at about the same time as I ride to work. They are sounding bunch even at 6 am in the dark in October and I would miss the happy “Good morning!” chorus I get in reply. When I only ring the bell, when the coffee has not soaked in yet, I get a “heard the bell hand wave” Were they a group of guys I would modify the pass warning from “….ladies” to “….gentlemen” and a mixed group simply “Good morning”.

[Brendan von Buckingham]

@Steve O 160960 wrote:

This thread was top of mind today when I encountered a rider who had stopped on the Rosslyn hill and was staring at her bike. No, I didn’t yell at her, but I stopped to see if I could help. It was a simple fix (she had overshifted her derailleur and the chain had gotten stuck). I was as respectful and kind as I’m capable of (shut up, everyone), but I just don’t know if the fact that I waited until she was up and riding along might be considered demeaning or not. She told me I could go ahead (she had to walk up the hill a bit to get to a flatter spot), but I waited anyway. I’m not sure if I would have with a man.

It seems like a tricky line to tread: did I unintentionally make her feel like a stupid, helpless woman? Or not?

Is just the fact that I was a man helping out a woman create a sexist dynamic a priori?

One sure solution to your conundrum is to just not help people. But that would make for a sh:tty community. If you see someone who needs help, help them. Who cares what others think. Not in this conversation, but big picture, I think there are constituencies that actually think helping people or fellow countrymen is a bad thing, or a weak thing and have constructed entire policies and positions to dissuade people from helping each other. Catch me on a bad day and I’ll call that sociopathic and sick. So I help people when I can. Or I feel bad about myself later if I don’t because those sick voices are inside my head and tempted me into the wrong decision.

Just help people. That is the only decision that has the possibility of being positive. Not helping has no chance of being positive.

[Tania]

@Steve O 160960 wrote:

Is just the fact that I was a man helping out a woman create a sexist dynamic a priori?

Just be cool. And if you’re sensing she’s uncomfortable, acknowledge it somehow. You can either say “I’m sorry, I hope that didn’t sound too mansplainy” or even as you’re telling her why her bike wasn’t working you can say “Yeah, this happens sometimes and I remember the first time it happened to me I was wasn’t sure how to fix it either.”

The stories shared on the Women and Bicycles group are horrifying. I’ve changed my commute home a bit to avoid someone I used to pass every day because he skeeved me out so much.

[eminva]

I’ll take Judd’s bait.

I think the blog post raised several distinct issues. To the extent it perhaps conflated some of those issues, I feel regret and a sense of missed opportunity. In the end, it probably doesn’t matter because the folks who need to see themselves will likely not read the blog or if they do, not see themselves in it.

1. The paths are crowded, getting more so, and there is a small subset of cyclists, most of them men but some women too, who behave in a fashion that makes the experience unpleasant or unsafe for other trail users. He dispatched with this issue with the standard WABA advice in his first set of bullet points. I think it is sound advice and would concur with all he said.

2. From there, he pivots to a discussion of sexism on the trails. I’ll get back to sexism in a minute, but in my opinion, it’s not so easy — the bad behavior he just described affects not just women, but impacts other cyclists, runners, dog walkers, children, dogs — of both genders. I have witnessed a cyclist let fly a string of obscenities at an elementary school age girl who was suddenly in his path while he moved into oncoming traffic to make a pass on a blind curve on the Custis. Something tells me he wouldn’t have a different response if it were a little boy. I also wonder if the out of shape men I see struggling on the trail don’t feel the same condescension? If not worse? And would they admit it if they did? I imagine the “entitled macho nonsense” might be an even bigger barrier for men who are not part of the lycra fraternity.

3. Sexism — Like any woman, I have been subjected to comments about my appearance — mostly by drivers or pedestrians — but I consider this an issue for our larger society more than the cycling community. As for condescending comments about seat height, mechanical issues, etc., sadly it appears to be real, though I wonder if that’s less sexism and more a function of super devoted cycling evangelists trying to educate the unworthy? And because most super devoted cycling evangelists are men, it comes across as condescending sexism?

What does annoy me? (And I’m cribbing from a comment I wrote on Strava this morning): For my own part, if I pass a guy (and I think long and hard before I pass any guy, no matter how slow) and he musters the effort to pass me but then slows down to original pace, I just slow down too and go his pace — it’s not worth the effort IMO. Understand, I’m not talking about two people going about the same speed but have relative strengths/weaknesses on hills or what not — I’m talking about a much slower cyclist who is making an obvious effort not to lose the “race” to a “girl.” Even if the race is only in his mind.

4. Personal Safety — I suspect women think about this a lot more than men — in fact, my first post to the forum was asking about etiquette around unannounced drafting. For my part, if I’m stopped by the side of the trail with a mechanical or flat, I don’t mind another cyclist offering help, no matter how inartfully worded, but I guess reasonable minds can differ as to the wording. I always say, “Do you have everything you need?” What they need could include expertise, but I’m making no assumptions. If you want to ride in my slipstream — especially if the trails are uncrowded — please say something. I won’t speak for others, but for me it goes beyond courtesy; it impacts my sense of personal security.

I’ll end as I began: the folks who need the wake up call probably won’t read any of this or see themselves in it if they do. What they need is the cycling equivalent of my old softball captain, an affable guy who would take aside the guys who took it too seriously and tell them to find a competitive men’s league if they want to hold themselves and others to a high standard. If you find yourself yelling at little kids on the trail, you need to find some fast company and a group ride on the roads.

Liz

[Rootchopper]

Last night, I gave unsolicited advice to a non-cycling woman at Gravelley Point. She was there with four kids who were about 4 or 5 years old. They came to watch the planes. She was pointing up at the planes with three of the kids around her. They were all off the trail on the broad dirt section. They were looking up. The fourth kid was unattended on the thin grass section on the opposite (airport) side of the trail. He looked up and tracked a plane as it passed over his head. He followed the plane and stepped onto the trail.

I was approaching from the river side. I saw a cyclist going at a reasonable speed approaching from the parking lot side. I pointed at the kid as he was about to step on the trail. But the cyclists didn’t see me.

He missed wiping the kid out by inches.

The caregiver never saw any of it. She likes planes too apparently. As I rolled past I said (pointing at the near victim) “He almost got hit.” She looked at me as if to say “Moi?”

My voice was level. I wasn’t mansplaining. As my wife and I learned from our day care provider, never ever turn your back on a toddler.

Just another evening on the MVT.

[Crickey7]

@eminva 160995 wrote:

I always say, “Do you have everything you need?”

That’s my takeaway. This phrase is perfect for offers of assistance. Thanks.

[jrenaut]

@Crickey7 161000 wrote:

That’s my takeaway. This phrase is perfect for offers of assistance. Thanks.

Yeah, I love that phrase. I was changing a flat along the W&OD and someone said that to me. It assumes competence but lets you ask for help without wounding your pride.

[Author]

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