gallows road signal

[mstone]

@bobco85 61687 wrote:

Personally, I would like to see that stoplight be removed altogether with a better alternative:

How about a median/pedestrian refuge/island in the middle? Right now the road has 2 bike lanes, 2 northbound lanes, 2 southbound lanes, and a center turn lane, so they could replace the center turn lane with a median/pedestrian refuge/island (I’ll make this in Streetmix later today). Also, the W&OD has multiple other road crossings that have some sort of pedestrian refuge in the middle (Sunrise Valley Dr, Sunset Hills Rd, Wiehle Ave, to name a few). If they repurpose that center turn lane, I think they could use the flashing yellow lights or even do away with the stoplight altogether since (I’m not a traffic engineer) the timing doesn’t work for efficient car, cyclist, or pedestrian traffic flow.

I don’t understand why anyone not in a car would want to remove the signal. The existing multilane W&OD crossings in Loudoun & western Fairfax are death traps, largely because VDOT refuses to put signals in because they want to maintain their vehicle level of service. (Insert rant about how we really need a pedestrian level of service, so they have a metric to make them care about pedestrian issues.)

As a practical matter, they wouldn’t eliminate your turn lane for the same reason. I also don’t see any point in having an island: much of the time it’s easy to cross gallows without the island, even against the signal. The problem becomes how to stop the traffic to let people cross at busier times. The only way to do that is with a red light.

@Tim Kelley 61688 wrote:

Completely separated flyover bridge!

Spending upwards of a million bucks to put in a 20 foot hill there just so cars don’t have to slow down between stoplights wouldn’t be my first choice; I can think of better places to spend the money, and the road just isn’t wide enough or fast enough to make a stoplight unreasonable.

[dasgeh]

@mstone 61689 wrote:

A regular old light would be pointless, since the W&OD isn’t a road and the users are pedestrians…

The point would be to allow cyclists to proceed through when things aren’t working. Plus, it recognizes that some use the trail for transportation.

[bobco85]

Here’s what I’m thinking:

Current:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3535[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3537[/ATTACH]

My idea (the crossing would have button-activated flashing yellow lights or maybe ones that turn red when pushed during rush hour):
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3536[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3538[/ATTACH]

I disagree that the other multilane crossings without lights are deathtraps, but I do understand that drivers have a hard time yielding right-of-way to anyone. I agree that those crossings need improvements, too, but I would prefer to have a more flexible set-up where people could cross Gallows Rd when they need to and drivers could have relatively uninterrupted flow of traffic after yielding to people crossing.

[mstone]

@dasgeh 61704 wrote:

The point would be to allow cyclists to proceed through when things aren’t working. Plus, it recognizes that some use the trail for transportation.

It’s not legally a road. You could make it a road, but then the joggers and walkers shouldn’t be on it and cars should. That seems suboptimal, compared to just fixing the signal. And the chances of having some sort of penalty attached to crossing on a broken signal seem low.

[dasgeh]

@mstone 61716 wrote:

It’s not legally a road. You could make it a road, but then the joggers and walkers shouldn’t be on it and cars should. That seems suboptimal, compared to just fixing the signal. And the chances of having some sort of penalty attached to crossing on a broken signal seem low.

It doesn’t have to legally be a road to get a signal. See the definition of intersection I quoted before.

[mstone]

@dasgeh 61718 wrote:

It doesn’t have to legally be a road to get a signal. See the definition of intersection I quoted before.

Again, you’re misapplying that definition. The intent of -100 is to define “intersection” when it is used elsewhere in the code. In this case it says that there can be an intersection for the purpose of installing a TCD where a pedestrian crossing exists (this is exactly the enabling language for the signal which currently exists at gallows; without this, there would not be an intersection and a signal could not be used to cause cars to stop there). But the language defining a traffic light (-833) specifies the behavior of traffic (i.e., vehicles) and has penalties that apply only to drivers of motor vehicles. Just because there is an intersection at a crosswalk doesn’t mean that a traffic light applies to pedestrians on a path as opposed to the vehicles on the road.

Edit to add: if the W&OD was a road, then a traffic light at that intersection would apply to cyclists (we’d be acting as vehicles on a road, and could even get a sensor to trip the light) but still would do nothing for pedestrians. I’m not sure if there’s any provision for pedestrians to get a button for a traffic light.

[mstone]

@bobco85 61709 wrote:

My idea (the crossing would have button-activated flashing yellow lights or maybe ones that turn red when pushed during rush hour):[/quote]

Why would you want flashing yellow lights? They don’t require cars to do anything. I already suggested a red light, but that seems to be what you’re arguing against.

Quote:

I disagree that the other multilane crossings without lights are deathtraps, but I do understand that drivers have a hard time yielding right-of-way to anyone. I agree that those crossings need improvements, too, but I would prefer to have a more flexible set-up where people could cross Gallows Rd when they need to and drivers could have relatively uninterrupted flow of traffic after yielding to people crossing.

There simply is no traffic control device that does that. We either require cars to stop with a red light, or we don’t. For reasons of pedestrian safety, we require that a walk signal has to last a minimum amount of time (remember, there are other users of W&OD in addition to people on bikes).

Do you know what is intended to provide exactly what you’re asking for? A crosswalk. The paint on the road was intended to indicate that a car would stop to let someone cross, then go again when the way was clear. The original intent of crosswalks was that people would be able to safely cross because cars would yield in a reasonable fashion, but that has been watered down so much by social renormalization and legislative stupidity that it is not safe for a pedestrian to enter a high speed road without either a red light or a complete absence of cars, or unless a motorist has decided to stop out of altruism (which doesn’t work reliably on a multilane road, which is why Sterling & Wiehle are deathtraps; Belmont is a deathtrap because of the excessively high speed limit & bad sightline). Since motorists can’t be relied on to uphold their part of that bargain, we either get a red light or we scurry across and get blamed if we’re run over. There is no other legal option. (Nor is there really a need for one; we could simply go back to crosswalks having some useful purpose. As a society we’d also save a lot of money if we could simply respect crosswalks–signalized intersections are not cheap.)

[hozn]

Hi folks. By all accounts this light is working fine — was yesterday at 4pm, this am around 6:10 and this afternoon. Must have been a temporary glitch.

I am not so sure about the beg buttons being noops. I have come to the intersection and missed the cycle (the walk signal *is* timed with the Idylwood red light) and then pushed the button to get it next time around. So I don’t think the light will change if no-one pushes the button. But I don’t have the patience to add 5 minutes to my commute to test.

[Vicegrip]

^this. I took a too long phone call one winters day after stopping at gallows / wod. There was no one else on the trail and I did not push the button. For at least 10 min the sig did not change but did so soon after a push when someone came along.

I wonder if a countdown to cross timer would help. It already counts down the time left during a crossing. Have it count down to the next crossing sig. would also let you know your button push was working but might have an unintended consequence. Some folks might weigh the now known wait time against getting hit making a rogue run for it. I would like a count down to cross. let me know how long so I could take a drink get comfortable or track stand if short. (well not that last one, cant track stand just yet)

[hozn]

Yeah, the countdown would be really nice. Or at minimum then lights that indicate that the push is registered (like Maple crossing).

[mstone]

Weird. Maybe it’s random. I hit the button yesterday when it never changed. Other times I come up and it changes when nobody is in sight. Maybe the behavior depends on the time of day?

[bobco85]

@mstone 61729 wrote:

Why would you want flashing yellow lights? They don’t require cars to do anything. I already suggested a red light, but that seems to be what you’re arguing against.

There simply is no traffic control device that does that. We either require cars to stop with a red light, or we don’t. For reasons of pedestrian safety, we require that a walk signal has to last a minimum amount of time (remember, there are other users of W&OD in addition to people on bikes).

Do you know what is intended to provide exactly what you’re asking for? A crosswalk. The paint on the road was intended to indicate that a car would stop to let someone cross, then go again when the way was clear. The original intent of crosswalks was that people would be able to safely cross because cars would yield in a reasonable fashion, but that has been watered down so much by social renormalization and legislative stupidity that it is not safe for a pedestrian to enter a high speed road without either a red light or a complete absence of cars, or unless a motorist has decided to stop out of altruism (which doesn’t work reliably on a multilane road, which is why Sterling & Wiehle are deathtraps; Belmont is a deathtrap because of the excessively high speed limit & bad sightline). Since motorists can’t be relied on to uphold their part of that bargain, we either get a red light or we scurry across and get blamed if we’re run over. There is no other legal option. (Nor is there really a need for one; we could simply go back to crosswalks having some useful purpose. As a society we’d also save a lot of money if we could simply respect crosswalks–signalized intersections are not cheap.)

For flashing yellow lights, this is from Virginia Code 46.2-833:

Flashing circular amber indicates that traffic may proceed through the intersection or past such signal with reasonable care under the circumstances. Such traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrian and vehicular traffic lawfully within the intersection.

It basically does the same as not having lights at all, but the benefit is the increased communication to drivers. This works better in my opinion than a red light because only part of the traffic flow (1 or 2 lanes at a time stop instead of 4 or 5) is disrupted only while a person is in the crosswalk. The pedestrian refuge could work in that 2 sets of lights could be used (1 set for northbound, the other for southbound) so that people would only have to cross 2 lanes of traffic at a time.

Some of the Paint Branch trails in MD use signals like this that I would love to have here in VA.

All in all, I feel I’m more trusting and optimistic that with the right signals drivers can do the right thing with the proper set-up, even though a simple crosswalk should be enough for people to be lawful.

[hozn]

@mstone 61747 wrote:

Weird. Maybe it’s random. I hit the button yesterday when it never changed. Other times I come up and it changes when nobody is in sight. Maybe the behavior depends on the time of day?

Yeah, that is definitely possible. Not sure when you pass by, but maybe they change it for peak rush hours. The buttons for lights in Reston vary in effectiveness depending on time of day.

I certainly would contribute to a bridge find there, though, regardless.

[Amalitza]

@mstone 61747 wrote:

Weird. Maybe it’s random. I hit the button yesterday when it never changed. Other times I come up and it changes when nobody is in sight. Maybe the behavior depends on the time of day?

How long is the light cycle, and how far ahead can you see? Sometimes, someone, not saying who or anything :o, at certain intersections, might push a walk button when they reach it, then if the road clears before the light changes, go on ahead through anyway. If that happened and two minutes later you got to the crossing, you might just be the lucky recipient of my, er I mean their, button push.

[mstone]

@bobco85 61752 wrote:

It basically does the same as not having lights at all, but the benefit is the increased communication to drivers. This works better in my opinion than a red light because only part of the traffic flow (1 or 2 lanes at a time stop instead of 4 or 5) is disrupted only while a person is in the crosswalk. The pedestrian refuge could work in that 2 sets of lights could be used (1 set for northbound, the other for southbound) so that people would only have to cross 2 lanes of traffic at a time

Why is it such a big deal for cars to get delayed a bit, to the point that pedestrians are expected to huddle on an island with cars whizzing by on both sides? They have to stop at other intersections for cars…has car culture really taken over that much? What the heck is the need for increased communication? There’s a pedestrian standing at a cross walk, head swiveling and checking traffic…it’s not rocket science…

And yes, it’s exactly the same as no lights at all. The problem isn’t that daily commuters don’t know there’s a crosswalk on their route and need it pointed out, it’s that they don’t care. Yellow lights are universally recognized as “only a couple more cars should go through” and only a red light has a chance of making people stop. So if they won’t stop for the crosswalk, why are they going to stop for a meaningless yellow light? And, sure enough, my experience on Belmont is that the yellow light doesn’t make traffic stop. You still need to just walk out in front of a car going at least 45mph (ten miles over being the standard minimum) and hope they stop, or wait for a complete cessation of traffic.

My feelings on this have nothing to do with pessimism or optimism, it’s a matter of accident statistics. Pedestrians get hit in crosswalks at a distressing rate.

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