Fun stunt biking video

[Vicegrip]

@GovernorSilver 129910 wrote:

Um, you win?

The risk sure feels real to me every time I ride to work and back.

Not trying to win anything. I ride to and from work every day. I think if I spent as many miles and hours doing the activities in the video I would be exposed to far more risk of injury.

[GovernorSilver]

According to our CDC, death by motor vehicle is still one of the leading causes of death in the US. I have to ride on the streets with cars every time I commute, and thus I risk my life/health every time I ride. I also risk my life/health every time I get into my car and drive.

Those British trial riders risk life/health to do their stunts, but I bet they don’t commute by bike to work every day. I’m not convinced that the risk levels are all that different.

[jabberwocky]

@PotomacCyclist 129915 wrote:

I’m not calling for any sort of ban. I’m simply adding commentary to these videos, because I don’t think a lot of viewers appreciate how destructive the process actually is. I used to watch the videos in amazement and awe, but then I started looking into the price that they pay. I liked the creativity and the bike skills in the earlier videos. The latest one not as much. It comes across to me as more like one of those amateur YouTube videos, where some adrenaline junkies do insane stunts just to film it. I hope MacAskill doesn’t go down that path, because that didn’t appear to be his approach before. He has much more to offer than just extreme risk taking.

A lot of old skate videos had slam sections, which was usually several minutes of the riders falls. Many were very nasty. I harbor no illusion that these guys are doing it injury free. I can remember watching a friend (who had a cast on after snapping both bones in his forearm and needing surgery/metal plates to put it back together) slamming over and over trying a huge set of stairs. He was in pain, but he kept going back to try again until he got it.

I don’t think you quite get the mentality of these sorts of riders. They aren’t doing a risk/reward analysis. They are looking at a line and thinking “it would be awesome if I could ride that”. The injury list is almost badge of honor. You just don’t ride at that level unless you really want to (and are frankly a bit insane). Just from knowing some people with that mentality, I’m firmly convinced that the camera is incidental. They would be doing crazy shit regardless, because they are driven to constantly one up themselves, find that next even more awesome line to try, hit that trick down ever bigger gaps, do ever bigger drops.

We can tut-tut and say he’s gonna hurt himself, but the reality is that he already knows that and does it anyway.

[PotomacCyclist]

@GovernorSilver 129917 wrote:

According to our CDC, death by motor vehicle is still one of the leading causes of death in the US. I have to ride on the streets with cars every time I commute, and thus I risk my life/health every time I ride. I also risk my life/health every time I get into my car and drive.

Those British trial riders risk life/health to do their stunts, but I bet they don’t commute by bike to work every day. I’m not convinced that the risk levels are all that different.

But that’s because there are far more trips on the road than downhill bike races. The percentage of getting seriously injured in a downhill bike race is likely much higher than for a bike commuter who follows defensive riding principles. Nothing in life is 100% risk-free, but I’d think bike commuting (at reasonable speeds) is much safer. Even safer is riding on bikeshare. Something like 20 million total trips or more without a single fatality. That won’t happen with downhill bike racing.

[PotomacCyclist]

@jabberwocky 129918 wrote:

A lot of old skate videos had slam sections, which was usually several minutes of the riders falls. Many were very nasty. I harbor no illusion that these guys are doing it injury free. I can remember watching a friend (who had a cast on after snapping both bones in his forearm and needing surgery/metal plates to put it back together) slamming over and over trying a huge set of stairs. He was in pain, but he kept going back to try again until he got it.

I don’t think you quite get the mentality of these sorts of riders. They aren’t doing a risk/reward analysis. They are looking at a line and thinking “it would be awesome if I could ride that”. The injury list is almost badge of honor. You just don’t ride at that level unless you really want to (and are frankly a bit insane). Just from knowing some people with that mentality, I’m firmly convinced that the camera is incidental. They would be doing crazy shit regardless, because they are driven to constantly one up themselves, find that next even more awesome line to try, hit that trick down ever bigger gaps, do ever bigger drops.

We can tut-tut and say he’s gonna hurt himself, but the reality is that he already knows that and does it anyway.

One difference with the MacAskill videos is that they have had a wider audience than just the daredevil crowd. At least that was my impression. I’ve seen a fair amount of positive comments about the previous videos from people who I don’t think are skateboarding, downhill bike racing or tightrope walking fans. His earlier videos were more of a combination of skill and art. Perhaps he has always had a mentality that wasn’t fully displayed in those videos and he will start to move in that direction. He’s already lost me. Not that it matters to him, which is fine.

I know he won’t read my comments. My comments here and elsewhere are more for general consumption. I don’t think every viewer thinks about the total process, especially when the earlier videos were more artistically focused. I certainly didn’t think of that side of it fully. There’s also a difference between those videos and the new one. I don’t want to get too repetitive here and I can’t think of much new to say on the topic. But when other videos are released, I’ll probably post similar comments. Not to troll but to continue the conversation with people who may not be familiar with the other videos, this and other threads, and behind-the-scenes facts about the activity and the filming process. I probably wouldn’t post these types of comments on a forum that was focused on daredevil stunts or extreme sports. But since this forum has a much broader focus and includes many people who are casual cyclists and occasional bike commuters, I think it makes more sense to post this here. I just that on a general forum, if these activities are going to be glorified, a different perspective is also necessary.

(I realize that I’ve posted some of his videos on the forum before. I don’t think his earlier ones were nearly as extreme, and my thoughts about him and others like Martyn Ashton have changed, precisely because of Ashton’s injury and MacAskill’s interviews.)

[Vicegrip]

@GovernorSilver 129917 wrote:

According to our CDC, death by motor vehicle is still one of the leading causes of death in the US. I have to ride on the streets with cars every time I commute, and thus I risk my life/health every time I ride. I also risk my life/health every time I get into my car and drive.

Those British trial riders risk life/health to do their stunts, but I bet they don’t commute by bike to work every day. I’m not convinced that the risk levels are all that different.

Idon’t question your assessment of risk at all. We all asses risk as we see fit.
Those stats are almost entirely for people inside the cars not on bikes. If I recall there were something like 750 cycling / automotive related deaths per year out of over 350 million people in the US.
Perceived and real risk are not the same. Many people have a fear of flying on a commercial airplane. True measurable fear of flying while no perceivable fear of driving to the airport. We are more likely to be killed going to the airport than on the airplane. We hear about every airplane related crash but not every time a car crashes. When we do hear a bout a car crash it is simply more of something we are used to and expect to hear about. A plane crash is News. In the US, per mile traveled, I suspect that bikes are less safe than modern cars but I also suspect that by the numbers the overall likelihood of being killed by a car / bike impact is less than many other risks we expose ourselves with little hesitation. To some extent car/bike crashes are news as well. They stick out a bit more than the standard 2 paragraph car crash report you read on page 4 of the Metro section.

The outtakes of just the (very fun to watch) kids toys video had far more hard falls shown than I have taken in my lifetime.

[LeprosyStudyGroup]

Seeing that pic of Jamie doing the Leap of Faith gave me some warm nostalgia fuzzies
**apparently he’s still skating and still making videos for zero, wow

[jabberwocky]

@LeprosyStudyGroup 129938 wrote:

Seeing that pic of Jamie doing the Leap of Faith gave me some warm nostalgia fuzzies
**apparently he’s still skating and still making videos for zero, wow

I’m actually surprised how many pros from my day are still around and riding. Tony Hawk and Rodney Mullen are both pushing 50 and still ride! Hell, I can remember watching Danny Way in Plan Bs old Questionable video (circa 1992), and he apparently just set a world record for air a few months ago.

Its hard on the body for sure, and most pros don’t hang around that long. But some guys just keep doing it forever and ever. Jamie is impressive just because he’s known as a handrail skater, and that shit is a really good way to kill yourself. But hes apparently pretty durable.

[GovernorSilver]

@PotomacCyclist 129923 wrote:

But that’s because there are far more trips on the road than downhill bike races. The percentage of getting seriously injured in a downhill bike race is likely much higher than for a bike commuter who follows defensive riding principles. Nothing in life is 100% risk-free, but I’d think bike commuting (at reasonable speeds) is much safer. Even safer is riding on bikeshare. Something like 20 million total trips or more without a single fatality. That won’t happen with downhill bike racing.

By choosing to not compete in downhill bike racing you think you are living a safer lifestyle.

On the other hand, the racers are presumably grown men and women who know what to expect, have already studied the course, they’ve trained, etc.

Whereas as a bike commuter you put a lot of faith in motorists obeying the traffic laws – that they will actually stop at red lights when they are supposed to, not hit you while turning in intersections, etc. You have no control over their behavior.

The other irony I observed just now is that you feel like you should be the “alternative voice” against the “glorification” of trials riding and similar stunts, yet you just admitted it was you who posted those videos to start the other thread a while back. I had nothing to say there because it was a “see what happens when you do bad things boys and girls” kind of a vibe – like you’re lecturing a classroom of children instead adults.

At any rate, now I that I know what kind of reception these videos will get here, from what appears to be a vocal minority of the forum, I will refrain from further sha Iring of such here. No skin off my back, really, but I don’t want to start more back and forth and lecturing and that sort of thing.

[Tim Kelley]

@GovernorSilver 129940 wrote:

At any rate, now I that I know what kind of reception these videos will get here, from what appears to be a vocal minority of the forum, I will refrain from further sha Iring of such here. No skin off my back, really, but I don’t want to start more back and forth and lecturing and that sort of thing.

I guess I’ll post one then:

[Tania]

I wish I had the ladyballs to ride like that. It looks like a stupid amount of fun and that’s the very best kind.

[mstone]

@GovernorSilver 129940 wrote:

On the other hand, the racers are presumably grown men and women who know what to expect, have already studied the course, they’ve trained, etc.

Whereas as a bike commuter you put a lot of faith in motorists obeying the traffic laws – that they will actually stop at red lights when they are supposed to, not hit you while turning in intersections, etc. You have no control over their behavior.

Well, that’s pretty much a textbook example of how people have trouble estimating risk. Yes, the people who do this stuff practice, but the practice itself is inherently dangerous and prone to debilitating injuries. But since they feel like they’re in control they mentally downplay the risk. Yes, cyclists have to assume that drivers will not do something stupid, but that’s statistically likely. But since the drivers are not under the cyclists’ control, they feel riskier than they actually are. It’s exactly like the phenomenon of people feeling safer when they’re driving than they feel as a passenger in a plane: peoples’ brains are influenced more by whether there’s a perception of control than by actual statistical risk.

[dkel]

These arguments against stunt riding remind me a great deal of comments I get at work about bike commuting in general: “it’s too dangerous to ride in the street,” or “it’s too dangerous to ride in the dark,” or “it’s crazy to ride when it’s below freezing.” At some point, I tend to lose patience with these comments, and have to say to the people making them that they don’t have any experience to draw on when coming to these conclusions, and that’s the reason it seems so dangerous to them. The professionals who make extreme videos have talent and experience beyond what any one of us on this forum has; passing judgment on the way they go about assessing risk in their profession seems naive and unfounded. Accidents do happen—to everyone—and it can be tragic when that happens, but risk is these peoples’ stock-in-trade, and they are better equipped to overcome their risk than any of us can understand.

[DismalScientist]

Well, it really IS crazy to ride when it is particularly cold and snowy. It isn’t particularly dangerous, but crazy nonetheless.:rolleyes:

[PotomacCyclist]

@GovernorSilver 129940 wrote:

By choosing to not compete in downhill bike racing you think you are living a safer lifestyle.

On the other hand, the racers are presumably grown men and women who know what to expect, have already studied the course, they’ve trained, etc.

Whereas as a bike commuter you put a lot of faith in motorists obeying the traffic laws – that they will actually stop at red lights when they are supposed to, not hit you while turning in intersections, etc. You have no control over their behavior.

The other irony I observed just now is that you feel like you should be the “alternative voice” against the “glorification” of trials riding and similar stunts, yet you just admitted it was you who posted those videos to start the other thread a while back. I had nothing to say there because it was a “see what happens when you do bad things boys and girls” kind of a vibe – like you’re lecturing a classroom of children instead adults.

At any rate, now I that I know what kind of reception these videos will get here, from what appears to be a vocal minority of the forum, I will refrain from further sha Iring of such here. No skin off my back, really, but I don’t want to start more back and forth and lecturing and that sort of thing.

I don’t feel like I need to be the “alternative voice.” I’m just posting what I think about this particular video, and how I think it’s much different from his previous videos. And why would you alter your behavior because of what I posted? I haven’t insulted you or threatened you in any way. Plus I have zero control over what people post on this forum. (I do report the smartphone ads from overseas persons as spam. But nothing else.) I’m posting my opinions. Most people here obviously don’t agree with me here and that’s fine. Why would my posts force you to change your behavior? They shouldn’t, especially if you are in the majority here, which you seem to be. (In the old days, my posts on ARLnow and WTOP were in the minority, when most people seemed to feel OK with posting hate messages calling for death to cyclists and pedestrians and telling them to “pay for the roads if they want to share them” and similar nonsense. While there are still a lot of those posts there, there are also more posts about road safety and multimodal transportation. You wouldn’t think that road safety would be so controversial. It still is, but at least there’s more of a balance in those comment sections now. Just explaining this to show that minority/majority status shouldn’t change whether or not you post. However, on some of the ideological websites, there is just too much anger, much of it racially-based, that I don’t bother with those sites most of the time.)

I don’t have much faith at all in motorists obeying the traffic laws, because I see them breaking them every day. I change my behavior as a result. Part of that is avoiding certain hot spots, such as the trail crossings near Memorial Bridge, which I rarely take these days. I also expect every single driver to run a red light or make an aggressive left/right turn without looking for pedestrians or cyclists in other lanes. I expect drivers to pull out of driveways without looking (because I’ve seen this happen dozens of times). That’s why I slow down before those driveways and other appropriate places. Because I don’t trust the drivers. I’ve ridden around for seven years without once getting hit by a car. While there’s always a risk, there is risk in just living. (I also face more close calls while walking around DC and Arlington. Maryland as well.) But you are honestly saying bike commuting is just as dangerous as downhill racing or riding around on rooftops? No. The risk of death is relatively low while bike commuting. For bike commuting on CaBi or bikeshare, that risk has turned out to be zero, nationwide. After 20 million or more total trips, there’s enough data to show that bikeshare riding is a very safe activity. Far safe than driving (and actually safer than riding on faster bikes).

There’s a broad spectrum of risk for any activity. For bikeshare, that risk has turned out to be zero. Even if there is a death in the future, the total risk will still be exceeding small. Bike commuting on a faster bike has a slightly higher risk, but still relatively low. MacAskill’s earlier videos were risky but still presented only a low risk of death. They had much more to do with showcasing his skill and creating an artistic video. But the newest video is much different. Instead of riding on a rail like he did in the railroad station video, he’s now riding high above the streets on the rooftops. There’s a difference. That’s what I’m trying to point out, that he has changed his routine significantly from his earlier videos. That’s why I posted the earlier videos but I’m not a fan of the current one. There’s no irony in that. I am not trying to hide that fact either, since I mentioned this myself. He is doing something significantly different now.

Maybe I’m stuck on this topic because I do think in terms of safety a lot, mostly regarding cars and traffic. (Nowadays, I also use these arguments to point out the hypocrisy of all the people calling on extreme unconstitutional measures to fight terrorism even though car drivers kill hundreds of times more Americans every year than foreign terrorists do. People demand zero tolerance for terrorism deaths but they are perfectly fine engaging in risky traffic behaviors that lead to the deaths of tens of thousands of Americans every year. I’m not connecting this to the bike video, by the way. I’m just explaining why overall safety and any sort of bike-related safety is at the front of my mind a lot.)

[Author]

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