Friends of the Mount Vernon Trail E-Bike Survey

[buschwacker]

It’s great to see this, but the ban of Class 2 ebikes (those limited to 20mph but which have a throttle as well as pedal assist) misses the mark. Meanwhile, Class 3 ebikes (limited to 28 mph pedal assist only) are still allowed, making me worry about excessive speeds on the trail.

It’s unclear what NPS is trying to achieve here – a values judgment in favor of pedalers or just tilting at the windmill of “mopeds on the trail?” I use my throttle primarily to get going from a stop, but it’s also fantastic way to catch a breeze in hot weather on my commute home in pants and tie. Speed is the primary issue on the trail, not whether a rider is pedaling, and I hope there won’t be a rash of speeding Class 3s as a result of this rule.

[Judd]

@buschwacker 193080 wrote:

It’s great to see this, but the ban of Class 2 ebikes (those limited to 20mph but which have a throttle as well as pedal assist) misses the mark. Meanwhile, Class 3 ebikes (limited to 28 mph pedal assist only) are still allowed, making me worry about excessive speeds on the trail.

It’s unclear what NPS is trying to achieve here – a values judgment in favor of pedalers or just tilting at the windmill of “mopeds on the trail?” I use my throttle primarily to get going from a stop, but it’s also fantastic way to catch a breeze in hot weather on my commute home in pants and tie. Speed is the primary issue on the trail, not whether a rider is pedaling, and I hope there won’t be a rash of speeding Class 3s as a result of this rule.

I would guess that this is because some of the difficulty in differentiating a Class 2 being run entirely on throttle versus something that’s really an electric moped or motorcycle.

The policy change is also NPS wide and I’m hearing from some public lands advocates that this policy will have a negative impact in places where bikes are permitted in non-paved areas.

I don’t think it’s a values judgment. NPS is a conservative organization and changes slowly. As someone who is trying to make a lot of changes on the trail that I think will be great for users and the park, that’s sometimes frustrating. As someone who is glad that there are public lands and that NPS policies tend to work to preserve those lands, I’m appreciative of conservative policy changes.

My impression is that if you’re using a Class 2 e-bike on the trail but you’re pedaling, no one is going to know that it’s a Class 2.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Judd]

Thank you to everyone who has shared the Friends of the Mount Vernon Trail’s e-bike survey. We have had 107 responses so far and are getting a fairly good mix of bikers, walkers and runners. Today’s responses bumped the number of female identifying respondents to 41% (it was at 25% yesterday). I appreciate you sharing on social media and with any groups you’re part of that may contain trail users.

The survey will close at the end of the day on September 22nd. When the survey closes, we’ll be using the results to inform a letter to the Superintendent of GWMP with our recommendation on how this policy should be incorporated in to the Director’s Compendium which are the rules for GWMP.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSccxXnIW5obAlwIr8psKhPjSxwiNfKi67pzh93yYL5QjF9LCQ/viewform

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[dasgeh]

@Judd 193111 wrote:

I would guess that this is because some of the difficulty in differentiating a Class 2 being run entirely on throttle versus something that’s really an electric moped or motorcycle.

First of all, most class 2 also have pedal assist. The throttle is a boost, essential for people who need help.

Second, what does it matter? the top speed isn’t faster than the road bikes that are allowed so…

[buschwacker]

@dasgeh 193116 wrote:

First of all, most class 2 also have pedal assist. The throttle is a boost, essential for people who need help.

Second, what does it matter? the top speed isn’t faster than the road bikes that are allowed so…

I understand Judd’s argument and sympathize with NPS’ rulemaking dilemma from an enforcement perspective – how should their rangers, already short staffed, be expected to differentiate between e-mopeds/motorcycles and ebikes at a glance for purposes of enforcement? Although this rule is imprecise, I suspect that it won’t be enforced against Class 2 bikes so much as against homebrew builds and true mopeds, so I’m not very worried that I’ll run afoul of the law by conscientiously riding my Class 2 on NPS trails.

However, I think they’ve set themselves up for failure by allowing Class 3s on the trail. That’s going to result in people zooming around at 28 mph, souring everyone on ebikes and maybe precipitating a crackdown or ban. That’s my real worry – speed.

[ChristoB50]

I have to disagree about the blanket statement that class 3 will result in everyone zooming around at 28.
I ride a class 3 and I don’t ever hit 28 (unless gravity assisted on the big downhill on Curtiss by the 66 garage.) I stick to probably 15-17 on most of the MVT. Of course I don’t represent all ebikers. But as plenty of pedal bikers routinely bike above the posted trail limit of 15mph now, so too I suspect some ebike riders will choose to do so.
But allowing class 3 doesn’t automatically make MVT a speedway…

[Judd]

@ChristoB50 193187 wrote:

I have to disagree about the blanket statement that class 3 will result in everyone zooming around at 28.
I ride a class 3 and I don’t ever hit 28 (unless gravity assisted on the big downhill on Curtiss by the 66 garage.) I stick to probably 15-17 on most of the MVT. Of course I don’t represent all ebikers. But as plenty of pedal bikers routinely bike above the posted trail limit of 15mph now, so too I suspect some ebike riders will choose to do so.
But allowing class 3 doesn’t automatically make MVT a speedway…

The only way to settle this is to let me borrow your ebike for a while and see if I can get it up to 28. My memory of riding a class 3 was that there’s a diminishing assistance curve so getting it up to 28 requires a lot of effort.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Judd]

@buschwacker 193186 wrote:

I understand Judd’s argument and sympathize with NPS’ rulemaking dilemma from an enforcement perspective – how should their rangers, already short staffed, be expected to differentiate between e-mopeds/motorcycles and ebikes at a glance for purposes of enforcement? Although this rule is imprecise, I suspect that it won’t be enforced against Class 2 bikes so much as against homebrew builds and true mopeds, so I’m not very worried that I’ll run afoul of the law by conscientiously riding my Class 2 on NPS trails.

However, I think they’ve set themselves up for failure by allowing Class 3s on the trail. That’s going to result in people zooming around at 28 mph, souring everyone on ebikes and maybe precipitating a crackdown or ban. That’s my real worry – speed.

Good news: it appears that we misinterpreted NPS memo a bit and Class 2 will be permissible as long as they are being operated with pedal assist and not throttle mode.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[buschwacker]

@Judd 193189 wrote:

Good news: it appears that we misinterpreted NPS memo a bit and Class 2 will be permissible as long as they are being operated with pedal assist and not throttle mode.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That’s good news! Could you link a source?

[Steve O]

@ChristoB50 193187 wrote:

But as plenty of pedal bikers routinely bike above the posted trail limit of 15mph now

Where is this posted? The only posted limits I have seen are on the CCT in MoCo.

[ChristoB50]

I think I saw it listed in one of the few-and-far-between fine-print signs? I’ll check on tonight’s ride home.
(Or perhaps I saw it listed in the “rules” from a MVT brochure/map… can’t remember now!)

[buschwacker]

I’ll try to remember to take a pic of the sign or signs I’ve seen on the MVT. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen them but now I want proof.

[ChristoB50]

@Judd 193188 wrote:

The only way to settle this is to let me borrow your ebike for a while and see if I can get it up to 28. My memory of riding a class 3 was that there’s a diminishing assistance curve so getting it up to 28 requires a lot of effort.

Judd, you’re welcome to take a spin any time!
I didn’t mean to imply I can’t get the bike up to 28 — I meant, I choose never to do so on my trail rides, as it isn’t responsible MUT riding – and particularly on the oft-congested MVT.
And, I hate the far more rapid battery drain that comes with maintaining any higher (assisted) speeds. I don’t want to charge my battery daily / after every ride… I want fewer full-charge cycles, to help extend its life. I tend to aim for 80 – 120 accumulated miles per charge cycle, which only happens on this ebike by staying in the lowest assist level (and mixing in stretches with assist off.)

In the max assist setting I could get to 28 (say, on a nice long, clear flat run), and then continuously stay pedaling to maintain it… (Never attempted to see how long I could keep that up, however.) But I’d also devour the battery charge in record time! And there just aren’t enough long, flat, open stretches where I’d feel comfortable doing that in practice. (I can’t remember the last time I even put the bike in the max assist setting… probably a few times, to see what it was like, ~16 months ago.)

[CaseyKane50]

@Steve O 193196 wrote:

Where is this posted? The only posted limits I have seen are on the CCT in MoCo.

There are at least two of them south of Belle Haven. There is also a 15 MPH sign included in the signs the FOTMVT have been deploying along the trail.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]20394[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]20395[/ATTACH]

[Judd]

@Steve O 193196 wrote:

Where is this posted? The only posted limits I have seen are on the CCT in MoCo.

There are two places that I can think of, both south of Alexandria.

There is also a sign hidden in the woods that has the trail speed limit.

Some of the trail kiosks now have trail rules posted which indicate 15 mph.

One of the etiquette yard signs that the FOMVT has posted on the trail also indicates a 15 mph speed limit.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Author]

Posts