February 2015 Trail Conditions

[scoot]

@mstone 109575 wrote:

Unless Arlington has some ability to retroactively block or delay the building of the GWMP they have no leverage.

One would think that the way to gain leverage would be to complain to your local politicians. Of course NPS leadership is appointed directly by the President. I’m gonna guess that plowing the MVT doesn’t rank very high on Obama’s to-do list for today.

[PotomacCyclist]

Well, then the comparison between the IoD and the Memorial Bridge-area crossings is even more one-sided. If people feel comfortable crossing there, coming from the south to Memorial Bridge, fine, but I still don’t consider it truly safe. Is it possible to cross safely? Yes, sort of. But I play the percentages. The risks of a collision there are much greater than along, say, the MVT between the 14th St. Bridge and the Crystal City connector where there aren’t any grade crossings at all (except in the Gravelly Point parking lot and car traffic there is generally 5 mph or so, which is not a serious threat). The risks are also greater with frequent use.

Maybe the crossing closest to Memorial Bridge is safer after the redesign a couple years ago, but the fact remains that you are still crossing lanes of high-speed traffic. It doesn’t matter if someone is used to it. That doesn’t change the reality of the car speeds there. Plus there are multiple grade crossings in a short distance, depending on whether you take Boundary Channel Drive instead of getting on the trail near the 9/11 Memorial.

On the MVT, I can just ride as I please, without having to be on the lookout for 50 mph cars. (There are some higher-speed cyclists in the summer, including some who pass aggressively in between busy two-way bike/pedestrian traffic, but that’s a separate matter.)

I did not claim that cycling in general is dangerous. While I apparently misstated the problem at the Intersection of Doom, it’s not exactly news that there are collisions at the Memorial Bridge-area crossings, not just the single fatality a couple years ago. There are other collisions and reported near misses:

http://www.arlnow.com/2011/04/20/jogger-hit-by-truck-on-gw-parkway-dies/
http://www.arlnow.com/2011/07/21/accident-on-gw-parkway-narrowly-misses-cyclist/
http://www.arlnow.com/2012/06/05/cyclist-struck-injured-on-gw-parkway/

In addition to that, I am basing my replies on personal experience. When I have ridden there in the past, I see the high-speed traffic right in front of me. I often have to wait for breaks in the traffic and then I have to hurry across to avoid getting hit by the next car. I don’t know if the next driver is going to slow down. Even if he or she does, what about the driver behind that person? There have been at least a couple incidents where the 1st driver slowed but the next driver did not. I have seen such situations myself, although fortunately those incidents did not result in any crashes or collisions.

Saying that the Memorial Bridge-area crossings can be hazardous is not news and it is not alarmist. The statement shouldn’t apply to cycling in general, and I never tried to apply the statement about the situation in that area to the DC/Arlington area in general.

As for the MVT, from Rosslyn, isn’t there an alternate route to the Memorial Bridge, along the trail that runs past the Marine Corps Memorial? (However, getting from the Custis to that trail might pose some challenges. I don’t ride in Rosslyn often, so I can’t speak to those routes.) Key Bridge is also right there. But I wasn’t really talking about bike travel from Rosslyn to Memorial Bridge.

If the DC section of the MVT on Columbia Island poses a jurisdiction issue, a plowing arrangement could be limited to the section from the Crystal City connector to the 14th St. Bridge. People riding from Shirlington have the option of taking the bike lanes from FMR Trail to Potomac Ave. and Crystal Drive to the connector. This could inconvenience people riding from Alexandria, but they can ride on the bike trail along Potomac Ave. up to Arlington. Those trails are new and in good shape. (Besides, if money is an issue as it always is, Arlington could prioritize sections of the trail most likely to be used by Arlington residents, which makes sense to me.)

I know there are difficulties in creating such an arrangement. So? Doesn’t mean we can’t wish the arrangement existed. [Twenty years ago, I doubt anyone would have predicted that this area would have an expansive bikeshare system, multiple cycletracks/protected bikeways, many more miles of regular bike lanes and the rapid rise in cycling popularity. People think of improvements that they would like to see in place, then they try to work it out. Not everything gets built or added, but over the years, a lot has been built and added.] As far as I can tell, there are no laws against this. On the other hand, people keep reporting that NPS likely doesn’t have the funding to devote personnel and equipment to the task of plowing any of the MVT. So the Arlington County option is the best one I can think of. If other people have better ideas, I’d love to hear them. I would support them too.

This could just be a short-term deal too. The Boundary Channel interchange is supposed to be renovated at some point (construction starting in a couple years, maybe?). That project includes a connecting trail from Boundary Channel Drive to the stub trail that currently stops along the Pentagon Lagoon. If and when this is built, it would be much simpler to ride from South Arlington to the 14th St. Bridge (assuming that future trail gets plowed). People could ride along the Long Bridge Drive bike lanes and Boundary Channel Drive to the new trail connector. (Does anyone know if that Pentagon Lagoon trail is under Arlington’s control or NPS? Or even DOD?)

[cvcalhoun]

Can someone who uses the CCT today please post its condition? I need to get to DC tomorrow, and am trying to figure out whether to use the trail or the surface streets. And while the CCT in Montgomery County looks great, I don’t want to get to the DC line and find that I’m suddenly trying to navigate an ice rink (as has happened several times before this winter).

[dasgeh]

@PotomacCyclist 109585 wrote:

Saying that the Memorial Bridge-area crossings can be hazardous is not news and it is not alarmist. The statement shouldn’t apply to cycling in general, and I never tried to apply the statement about the situation in that area to the DC/Arlington area in general.

I completely agree. However, saying:
@PotomacCyclist 109566 wrote:

Those Memorial Bridge-area crossings are more than just unpleasant. People get killed there just as they do at the “Intersection of Doom.”

is alarmist and untrue. That’s what my comments were directed towards.

Also, you usually write very well considered posts. You say here that you play the percentages, but I seriously question whether you have seen any data to give you percentages on collisions at Gravely Point (and along the rest of your route) v. collisions at the crossings you’re talking about. And if you have, please share.

All that said, it is completely understandable that you feel less comfortable biking here. And, as I’ve said, I completely agree that more needs to be done to make this area safer. I also agree that we need find a way to get the MVT plowed. I just am tired of smart, informed cyclists talking about multiple deaths that didn’t actually happen, or data that doesn’t actually exist.

[rcannon100]

I am following the fine tradition of jumping into the middle of a conversation that I am not following.

Are we comparing IoD to the GW crossings. OYE! I would love to see data. I know there is data for IoD. Do we get data for the GW crossings. I can tell you over the years I have seen so many accidents at the GW crossings. Once I stood in the middle of the GW and blocked traffic because a cyclist had been run over at the crossing and the cars would not stop coming. Another time I drove through the GW crossings and found a blood covered cyclist, with a bicycle in the shape of a pretzel, that I picked up and drove home. Oh yeah, and then there was the time that I was the blood covered cyclist — but that was on the Lincoln Memorial side.

I will agree with dasgeh. I would love to see data and I do consider IoD to be a form of insanity. That said, I consider both very dangerous and have changed by commute to avoid the GW crossings.

[Greenbelt]

@cvcalhoun 109586 wrote:

Can someone who uses the CCT today please post its condition? I need to get to DC tomorrow, and am trying to figure out whether to use the trail or the surface streets. And while the CCT in Montgomery County looks great, I don’t want to get to the DC line and find that I’m suddenly trying to navigate an ice rink (as has happened several times before this winter).

Can’t help you with current trail conditions, but can say that last time I rode the CCT after a snow, we did great until the DC line where the plowing ended, so we bailed out on that little path up toward Sibley hospital and then took surface streets down through Gtown. Worked fine in that case. -Jeff

[PotomacCyclist]

@dasgeh 109591 wrote:

I completely agree. However, saying:

is alarmist and untrue. That’s what my comments were directed towards.

Also, you usually write very well considered posts. You say here that you play the percentages, but I seriously question whether you have seen any data to give you percentages on collisions at Gravely Point (and along the rest of your route) v. collisions at the crossings you’re talking about. And if you have, please share.

All that said, it is completely understandable that you feel less comfortable biking here. And, as I’ve said, I completely agree that more needs to be done to make this area safer. I also agree that we need find a way to get the MVT plowed. I just am tired of smart, informed cyclists talking about multiple deaths that didn’t actually happen, or data that doesn’t actually exist.

I’m not going by any studies here. I’m going by what I see on the Memorial Bridge-area crossings (MB for short) vs. the MVT in my personal experience. There are zero high-speed grade crossings while riding on the MVT from the CC connector to the 14th St. Bridge. Contrast that to the multiple high-speed or potential high-speed crossings at the MB crossings. I don’t know what the studies are but I can clearly see that the cars are racing by at 40 mph or faster at those locations. I don’t need a study to tell me that, and I don’t need a study to tell me that unsignalized grade crossings of high-speed roadways really are a recipe for serious injury and potential death. I’ve had to hurry away from some of those high-speed drivers. Whenever I’ve ridden there, I find it very difficult to find a clean break in the traffic. I wait for a long time and then I get frustrated. Eventually I have to cross at some point in time and when I do, I have to rush across. Even when the driver does stop, I have to worry about a driver in the other lane not stopping, so it is still nerve-wracking.

The reported incidents confirm the problem and common sense would seem to indicate that with intersections like that, multiple incidents over the years are nearly inevitable. (This is also based on my experience with drivers. Not all of them are bad or reckless, but enough are. It only takes a small percentage to create a problem on a busy road. Add that to the high-speed nature of those road lanes and yes, I’ll stick with the statement that those crossings are more dangerous than typical intersections in DC and Arlington, and just dangerous in general.)

The potential for the same type of crashes just doesn’t exist at Gravelly Point. Well, maybe if there were a drugged-out driver who decided to race through the parking lot lanes at 50 mph, but I’ve never seen that. The design of the road makes that nearly impossible to do, even if someone tried. Drivers turning in from the GWMP have to make a near-180 degree turn. They just aren’t going to be able to sustain 50 mph in a turn like that. The parking lot isn’t long enough for a driver to pick up that kind of speed heading back out to the GWMP. I’ve never seen car traffic faster than 5-10 mph there, and usually it’s even slower than that, barely at a crawl as they approach the trail crossing. Even if there were an out-of-control driver, the sightlines are good enough where you would probably see him/her. In any case, I’ve never seen anything like that and I’ve never heard of any reports of such behavior there. Besides all this, the parking lot is usually empty or near-empty on weekday mornings, so there is almost no car traffic to worry about at all. Compare that to the MB crossings where just about every single car is moving at 40-50 mph and there are a lot of those cars.

rcannon only adds further confirmation that those crossings are dangerous. Dangerous is a relative term, but for a potential daily route for commuting, I think the risk level is far too high for me, and probably for many/most casual cyclists. When I’ve crossed there, I almost always think that I am tempting fate, and that if I do it often enough, eventually I will make a minor error in judgment (by not concentrating enough on the traffic or misjudging the speed or distance to the next oncoming car) and then I’ll get creamed by one of those cars. I have to be super-vigilant not to get hit, and I don’t think it’s wise to put myself in such a situation on a repeated basis. A bike commuter or a casual cyclist shouldn’t have to be so adept at judging the speed and distance of approaching high-speed cars. That’s not a reasonable demand to put on a civilian.

When I take the MVT and the 14th St. Bridge to downtown DC, there is no intersection that is remotely like those MB crossings for me. Maine Ave. near the Tidal Basin does have moderate-speed traffic, but there is also a traffic light. I can cross when the car traffic is completely stopped. Same thing with the crossings at Independence and Constitution Ave. There can be issues with drivers turning, but even when that happens, the driver is usually not traveling that fast so there is time for one or both parties to react appropriately to avoid a crash. The risk level between the MVT/14th St. Bridge route and the MB route are so different that I don’t even think of them as being in the same league.

The bottom line is that I basically refuse to ride along the route up to Memorial Bridge as a routine habit, unless the NPS plan to improve the Memorial Circle area is well-planned and well-executed. (Even if the improvements are well-designed, I don’t expect the redesign to be implemented for years.) I see that I’m not the only one who feels like that. Others have made similar statements over the years. So given the issues with the MB crossing, the only alternatives are the MVT or Pentagon/LBJ grove routes, without taking huge detours.

[scoot]

@PotomacCyclist 109585 wrote:

people keep reporting that NPS likely doesn’t have the funding to devote personnel and equipment to the task of plowing any of the MVT

I’m curious: where does NPS get the money to plow GWMP? (By the way in case it’s not clear, this is a serious, not rhetorical, question. But I suppose you can interpret it that way if you like…)

[dasgeh]

@PotomacCyclist 109594 wrote:

The bottom line is that I basically refuse to ride along the route up to Memorial Bridge as a routine habit, unless the NPS plan to improve the Memorial Circle area is well-planned and well-executed. (Even if the improvements are well-designed, I don’t expect much to be done for years.) I see that I’m not the only one who feels like that. Others have made similar statements over the years. So given the issues with the MB crossing, the only alternatives are the MVT or Pentagon/LBJ grove routes, without taking huge detours.

That’s totally fair and nobody is arguing with you. I have said in each post that it’s reasonable not to feel comfortable with these crossings. Just please stop with the “people DIE” language, and claims of data you don’t have. You have your experience and your level of comfort, which is a totally reasonable basis for your comfort level.

I find each of these MB crossings very different. You seem to be lumping them all together. I find the ones along 27 to be fine, including the one from the ANC Metro, which I take fairly often. I’ve led a Kidical Mass ride along the 27 trail, without incident (thanks marshals). I point this out because there may be people following along who may be considering various route options. Your posts imply that someone would be crazy to take these routes to the Memorial Bridge. My experience tells me that the route from the 27 Trail is not that bad and the route from the ANC Metro is just fine. I put it out there so others can make up their own minds.

[dasgeh]

@scoot 109595 wrote:

I’m curious: where does NPS get the money to plow GWMP? (By the way in case it’s not clear, this is a serious, not rhetorical, question. But I suppose you can interpret it that way if you like…)

They get all of their money from Appropriations, I believe. I don’t know how specifically the budget is directed from Congress.

[Crickey7]

@cvcalhoun 109586 wrote:

Can someone who uses the CCT today please post its condition?

The DC stretch is the unknown quantity there. It was passable yesterday morning with some care, but even if NPS plowed, the uneven surface and the fact that they always get there after the runners have packed it guarantees that they would not have gotten this morning’s snow removed. You’d have to assume enough melted to clear it again, and I suspect the temperature didn’t quite make it.

[dbb]

My studded 35s were wasted tonight

Clear line, albeit narrow in a couple of places, from Memorial Bridge to the south Pentagon parking lot. I rode along Washington rather than taking Boundary Channel because I was getting bored.

I might take my road bike with 25 mm slicks tomorrow. Sweet!

[OneEighth]

If you’re bored, dbb, ride the MVT (but in that case probably best to hold onto the studded 35s.).
Actually, most of the MVT from the 14th Street bridge to 4MR was okay if you can hold a line reasonably well. As was the W&OD from Shirlington to the Custis…except where it wasn’t… And those spots abraided my fixie zen.

[cvcalhoun]

bikeeveryday reports that as of this evening, CCT is clear from DC to Bethesda. Great news!

[dbb]

@scoot 109595 wrote:

I’m curious: where does NPS get the money to plow GWMP? (By the way in case it’s not clear, this is a serious, not rhetorical, question. But I suppose you can interpret it that way if you like…)

I took a quick run through the interwebs and found the Congressional Justification (CJ) for the NPS. As you’d imagine, there are some big numbers when you roll up the total NPS approp. It was interesting to find in the CJ was the NPS “recreational use” numbers from 2013. A quick (therefore potentially a bit wrong) thumb down the screen shows our very own GWMP (et al) as the fourth most used National Park in the nation. First is the National Mall with 30.1 million “recreational visitors”, then the Blue Ridge Parkway with 12.8 million, then the Great Smokey Mountain with 9.6 million and then the GWMP with 7.7 million.

To be fair, that 7.7 million likely includes the other units of the GWMP which are the Arlington House, Clara Barton National Historic Site, Claude Moore Colonial Farm, Glen Echo Park, Great Falls Park, Lyndon Baines Johnson Memorial, and Theodore Roosevelt Island.

Not wanting to quibble (much), I would suspect that many of those that are recreating in the GWMP choose to do so twice a day in their steel boxes.

The CJ is at:

http://www.nps.gov/aboutus/upload/FY-2015-Greenbook-Linked.pdf

I tried (but not very hard) to find the approps subcommittee report thinking there would be some more specificity but was unsuccessful. Another day.

[Author]

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