Ebike commute from Reston to DC

[jnva]

@sjclaeys 148385 wrote:

Most of the complaints on the forum are about regular bikes because the vast majority of wheeled MUP users are regular bikes, not e-bikes. You could have 10% of regular bike users be jerks and 75% of e-bike users be jerks, and still have the absolute number of regular bike users who are jerks be much greater than the absolute number of e-bike users who are jerks. I strongly agree that it is the user, not the vehicle, that is the jerk, but I am responding to the suggestion that e-bikes somehow make riders more courteous MUP users. As far as the assistance of the electric motors of e-bikes to their speeds, high speed passes by e-bikes with the riders not peddling shows that is often not the case.

If you yell loud enough at those ebikers, they’ll stop doing that.

[jabberwocky]

@MikeS 148387 wrote:

I can’t be responsible for other ebikers, but otherwise I’m trying to be good trail user.

And I can’t speak for anyone else, but it sounds like you’re a responsible rider and I’d have no issues sharing the trail with you. Glad the new bike is making the commute manageable!

[EasyRider]

I totally appreciate the care you take. I didn’t mean to single you out but I did want to note your ebike’s capabilities as an example. I’m just saying is that operating a heavy motorized vehicle at speed on a

MUP requires more responsibility than a pedal powered bike, because the consequences of inattentive use are more serious. Force is not about weighing 215 in any case. 215 + 45lbs traveling 20 mph, which very few cyclists can actually achieve for more than a minute or two, is much more force than 215 +30 pounds traveling 15 mph, which would be a fairly athletic pace on a pedal cycle.

[Anonymous]

I don’t feel singled out – I didn’t create this thread seeking pure positive reinforcement or anything. I’m curious what do you think should balance out the extra responsibility ebike’s entail on the trail, or should they be eliminated? Should I be required to take on additional insurance?

I’m still not convinced that ebike’s present an entirely new class or level of accident potential. I’ve certainly gone much faster on my roadbike than the ebike, enough to balance out the lower mass of my roadie when it comes to force. Citing figures of 15 mph, or 20 mph, are pretty situational. On some parts of the trial I’m going 10 mph, or others 20, and in the latter case I’m simply going with the flow of cyclist on stretches of trail with very low accident potential.

[hozn]

I think if you’re riding with the flow of traffic, it’s no more dangerous than anyone else on the trail. Averaging 17.5mph for 22mi is certainly brisk but doesn’t seem crazy.

It’ll be interesting to see how regulations adapt to the influx of e-bikes. Given that these are transportation corridors, I hope that their use is not discouraged. Of course where the purpose of a trail is primarily recreational, I can also see the counter argument. I see no reason for e-bikes in mountain biking, or in recreational cycling. A good chunk of those that commute by bike do it at least in part for the sport; from that perspective an e-bike is always going to be cheating.

On that note, someone needs to flag dasgeh’s e-bike QOMs!

[Anonymous]

@hozn 148402 wrote:

I think if you’re riding with the flow of traffic, it’s no more dangerous than anyone else on the trail. Averaging 17.5mph for 22mi is certainly brisk but doesn’t seem crazy.

It’ll be interesting to see how regulations adapt to the influx of e-bikes. Given that these are transportation corridors, I hope that their use is not discouraged. Of course where the purpose of a trail is primarily recreational, I can also see the counter argument. I see no reason for e-bikes in mountain biking, or in recreational cycling. A good chunk of those that commute by bike do it at least in part for the sport; from that perspective an e-bike is always going to be cheating.

On that note, someone needs to flag dasgeh’s e-bike QOMs!

Just out of curiosity – who influences regulations for paths such as the W&OD and Custis? Do they depend on township, county?

[lordofthemark]

Right now the number of people capable of riding at 28 MPH on a flat is fairly small, I guess. Assume 80% of those have the sense not to ride that fast where it doesn’t make sense. The 20% who are jerks are annoying, but few enough the trails are mostly tolerable to slower users.

What happens when most cyclists are able to do 28 MPH on flats. And the proportion of jerks stays the same?

I could see that becoming a problem.

It’s like runners in bike lanes. We know people do it, as long as it’s only a few, and most are chill, we can be chill about it. But it might not be a good idea to legalize it.

I will also repeat, that if I could do 28 mph on flats, I woukd find many more roads bikeable.

[Harry Meatmotor]

@lordofthemark 148405 wrote:

I will also repeat, that if I could do 28 mph on flats, I woukd find many more roads bikeable.

Vehicular Cycling, FTW.

[mstone]

@MikeS 148404 wrote:

Just out of curiosity – who influences regulations for paths such as the W&OD and Custis? Do they depend on township, county?

W&OD is under the Northern Virginia Regional Parks Authority. AFAICT that makes them basically unaccountable. Custis is a weird mix of ArlCo & VDOT.

[Tim Kelley]

@hozn 148402 wrote:

On that note, someone needs to flag dasgeh’s e-bike QOMs!

If she saved her rides as “E-Bike ride” instead of a regular ride it wouldn’t be an issue.

[Tim Kelley]

I wondered what other countries do in terms of regulating e-bikes. Asia has a ton of e-bike use–China has an interesting wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#China

The rest of the page is a pretty good read too.

[hozn]

@lordofthemark 148405 wrote:

Right now the number of people capable of riding at 28 MPH on a flat is fairly small, I guess. Assume 80% of those have the sense not to ride that fast where it doesn’t make sense. The 20% who are jerks are annoying, but few enough the trails are mostly tolerable to slower users.

What happens when most cyclists are able to do 28 MPH on flats. And the proportion of jerks stays the same?

I could see that becoming a problem.

It’s like runners in bike lanes. We know people do it, as long as it’s only a few, and most are chill, we can be chill about it. But it might not be a good idea to legalize it.

I will also repeat, that if I could do 28 mph on flats, I woukd find many more roads bikeable.

Obviously ebikes come in different configurations, but my experience riding with (i.e. drafting) a few e-bikes (I asked them if they cared if I tagged along; they were very congenial about it) is that they aren’t usually doing 28mph with any consistency. But 25mph, yes. Drafting at 25mph is a lot easier than pulling at 25mph (hence the peloton in road races); I think it’s safe to say those guys are going significantly faster than other trail users. Certainly it is very hard to keep up with them when they gun it from a stop. For my own part, I have never actually encountered an e-bike that is just riding at the speed of traffic. I was reminded of that this AM when an e-bike rider coming toward me was swerving wide around the slower cyclist in front of him. It wasn’t dangerous, per se (he was a ways away from me still), but it did highlight a big difference in how quickly he was able to accelerate from slow speed (as he swerved around the slower cyclist) compared to how it would have been had he been doing all the work himself. Having been in situations where the slower person (esp. ped) would jump to the left in those situations, that does make me nervous about e-bikes becoming commonplace on the trails and mixing with pedestrian traffic — especially for inexperienced riders.

The common argument I hear from roadies is that people on e-bikes haven’t “earned that speed”. I don’t think that’s to suggest that they’re “cheating”, only that learning to go fast means also learning how to react quickly, brake quickly, etc. I imagine eventually there will be some e-bike-pedestrian accident that will bring the question to the foreground. (Not that there aren’t also regular-bike-pedestrian accidents, but I think we all agree that increased weight and speed present a bigger risk of injury to all involved.)

I was thinking about it a little more this AM on my ride in, and I think that there’s also a subset of cyclists that believe that cycling is beautiful transportation in its purity/simplicity; it is a testament to the ability to people to go places merely on their own power. Adding motors does make a qualitative change. But if the focus of the conversation is on alternative / lightweight transportation, then I see no reason why e-bikes shouldn’t be allowed to use cycling infrastructure. Whether they’re allowed to use mixed-use infrastructure is probably the real debate.

On a loosely related note, I’ve seen a guy commuting on one of those electric “unicycles” a few times. Man, those look cool (but pretty slow). I’m still gonna get a 36″ (or geared 29″?) unicycle someday for commuting.

[lordofthemark]

@hozn 148417 wrote:

Adding motors does make a qualitative change. But if the focus of the conversation is on alternative / lightweight transportation, then I see no reason why e-bikes shouldn’t be allowed to use cycling infrastructure. Whether they’re allowed to use mixed-use infrastructure is probably the real debate.

I can see arguments either way.

Ebikes should get more rights on cycling infra (bike lanes, PBLs) than on trails. Because trails have pedestrians. Bike lanes don’t (at least legally they don’t). Duh.

Ebikes should get more rights on trails than on bike infra. If you are on a bike lane, there is a general travel lane right beside you. Except where the bike lane is on 45MPH signed road, the general travel lane probably should be relatively comfortable for someone with the capabilities of an ebike. Indeed, all the disadvantages of seg infra are worse when you are going as fast as ebikes are easily capable of. Trails on the other hand, go places roads don’t go. Or go there more directly (especially in places like NoVa where well developed street grids are lacking). And they provide an experience of nature that is completely different. Ergo, there is a reason why an ebiker would want to ride on them.

But I think that is how we should think about it, at least from a policy POV. Not who is a jerk. I imagine that as with every other group of cyclists, and every other group of road users, the jerks exist, but are a minority. The question is, given that user differences in speed and ability create conflicts, who has the greatest comparative advantage to using any particular piece of infra? Why is the infra there, and how does that particular mode/vehicle match to what that infra has to offer?

[americancyclo]

If you remove the “e-” prefix and change the location, you sounds like the drivers
@sjclaeys 148355 wrote:

And I have been dangerously passed many times on M St. in Georgetown by bike riders going much faster than the rest of the traffic and not announcing passes. Also, others at work have noted bike riders going through stop lights, etc., so there is that.

@EasyRider 148395 wrote:

I did want to note your ebike’s capabilities as an example. I’m just saying is that operating a heavy motorized vehicle at speed on a MUP requires more responsibility than a pedal powered bike, because the consequences of inattentive use are more serious.

We don’t do this on the roads, so why on the MUPs? A Chevy Suburban at 5500 lbs has no more legal responsibility than a Mazda 2 at 2500 lbs.

[dasgeh]

@Tim Kelley 148411 wrote:

If she saved her rides as “E-Bike ride” instead of a regular ride it wouldn’t be an issue.

I can’t on my phone.

BTW, last time I checked, none of my QOMs would be high on the boys’ (KOM) list. Which makes the complaint kinda sound like you have a problem with a woman riding that fast, and not a man.

Oh, and I haven’t had my motor on full for the last month or so. I think I’ve been faster because (drum-roll please) I’ve gotten stronger.

[Author]

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