chain retention and 1×8, 1×9, etc.

[vvill]

I wouldn’t say you need a clutch rear derailleur. I guess it depends a little on how much chain slack you’re running (and also if you’re on a small cog when you hit a bump). But I can only comment from my limited experiences. I’ve used both clutched (M786) and unclutched (M781) 10-speed XT with narrow wide chainrings now – one is an Absolute Black (currently on a 26″ beater bike) and the other is a road 110 bcd RaceFace. Neither has had a drop yet but it’s early days, and I am keeping an uncabled front derailleur on the bike with the unclutched XT RD so perhaps not a fair comparison. (I also upgraded from 7/8 speed to 10 speed at the same time.)

Generally when I’ve dropped a chain on 1x bikes (this is pre narrow-wide chainings), I’ve been in a taller gear and/or on a very bumpy surface.

tl;dr If I was mountain biking I’d definitely use a clutched RD but otherwise with a narrow wide I’d be okay trying a regular RD.

[EasyRider]

Thanks. Sounds like I’ve nothing to lose by trying the old Suntour rear derailleur … and a plain old chainring from the parts bin, for that matter.

Is anyone on this forum successfully running a 1×7 or a 1×8 without any sort of chain retention device?

I think I’ll give it a shot. I’m not really looking for wide gearing right now anyway. A 38t or 40t chainring with an 11×28 cassette would be fine (and 28t is all the old Suntour RD can handle anyway). If I end up liking the 1x setup, I think I’d spring for a 10 speed cassette, chain, clutch RD, and narrow wide chainring.

[vvill]

I had a 1×7 (13-34 cassette) but it dropped when it was bumpy. Also had a 1×9 (9-26 Capreo), same thing.

[EasyRider]

Shoot. I think I’ll skip the trial and error phase, then.

[anomad]

I would try running what you have in the parts bin and see what the results are. Nothing to lose. If chain drops are an issue then you could try a chain catcher or go full on clutch rear derailleur or back to a front derailleur.

This makes me think though, on my commuter bikes (both road triples which is ridiculous overkill for my routes and as slow as I ride) I use my middle chain ring 99.9% of the time. My chain never accidentally shifts up front? Does my front derailleur do more chain watch dogging than I give it credit for?

[hozn]

I have a SRAM X9 10sp (road/MTB) or 11sp. road rear derailleur (clutch) that is pretty well used but functional. Short-cage, so max 36t cassette. I am gonna swap it out for a longer cage so I have option to use 11-40t cassette if I want. Anyway, I was gonna put it up in classifieds for $20, if that helps your cause.

I rode around trails with a narrow-wide and 11-28 with a regular Rival RD for a bit; I don’t think I dropped chain, but it was not aggressive riding. I have dropped my chain a few times even with my clutch RD. Usually in smaller cogs, so wondering if I could lose a link or two. I haven’t dropped chain on my MTB, which is also SRAM 1×10.

Even with the rare chain drop, the system is great. For one thing putting the chain back on is super easy.

[EasyRider]

Thanks to you both. This thread has made me rethink not using a chain retention device in place of a front derailleur. I think I’ll give the Paul Components chain keeper a go, with a 1×8 drivetrain fom the parts bin.

Sooner or later, I think I’d drop a chain without a wide-narrow chainring and/or clutch RD. Those things seem to require 9-11 speed setups, or at least chains, but I’d like to stay with 8 speeds. It’s cheaper, but what’s more important to me is that I like friction shifting, and once you get past 8 speeds it can be a little tricky to “find” the gear you want using a friction shifter.

The Paul device looks nice and costs about the same as a wide-narrow ring. I’m putting Paul touring cantis on this bike so there’s that, too.

[drevil]

BLUF: IME, rear clutch derailleurs work better at stopping the chain from dropping better than narrow wide chainrings and front chain retention devices

I too am a tinkerer (not Tinker), and when I had to choose either narrow-wide ring or clutch derailleur, I’ve had better luck with the latter. I bounce around a bit while riding the road and mountain, and I have never dropped a chain with a clutch derailleur when properly set up. I have dropped the chain when I coupled a narrow-wide chainring with a non-clutch derailleur.

Here’s my current set up on one of my main bikes, and I have never dropped a chain over rumbly roads and rock fields:

Hope singlespeed/trials hub, which has a narrower freehub body that only allows up to 6 cogs.
Shimano XT Shadow+ 10 speed derailleur
Shimano XT 10 speed cassette, using only 6 of the cogs
SRAM PC-1031 chain
Salsa 42 tooth singlespeed chainring
Shimano Dura-Ace bar end shifter (front) on Paul shifter mounts (no indexing)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]14257[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]14258[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]14259[/ATTACH]

I agree with trying to run what you brung first if you are trying to save money. If you don’t bounce around much then you might be fine.

PS – I’ve used the Paul Chain retention device. It’s not as effective as a clutch derailleur. It was more effective than a NGear Jump Stop though.

[EasyRider]

Thanks, appreciate it. I’ll go with the Paul keeper for now and if I have any trouble a new clutch derailleur should solve it. Nothing to stop me from using 8 speed friction shifting with a modern clutch RD, right?

[drevil]

@EasyRider 156877 wrote:

Thanks, appreciate it. I’ll go with the Paul keeper for now and if I have any trouble a new clutch derailleur should solve it. Nothing to stop me from using 8 speed friction shifting with a modern clutch RD, right?

In my experience, nope. But if it doesn’t work, you can always justify buying a new bike to go with the new clutch derailleur*.

* – this logic only works if you are a Powerball winner or to counterbalance a spouse’s Jimmy Choo fetish.

[anomad]

What is the attraction of no index shifting for you guys?

I’m trying my first 1x set up, a 1×11 but only using 10 of the cogs. 11×42 I think. Its just ok for me. I like love the simplicity, but I am not crazy about the large jump between gears in the back. It’s a never ending fun exercise to try and come up with the ideal gear selection.

[hozn]

I think that you will get used to the gaps. Or at least, you will learn which gears you have at your disposal and when it won’t make sense to shift. I notice the gaps still,and sometimes still find myself jumping up and back down, looking for the cog that was skipped. (For me this used to be the 14t, but I have learned that isn’t there so I don’t look for it anymore).

Given how fast and exact indexed shifting is, I can’t imagine going back to friction. I also can’t imagine being happy without integrated shifters. Down shifting while braking is really nice. I was thinking about that as I was riding up through the city to Beach Dr. today; lots of gear changes. I really like my 1×11 road bike. (And my 1×10 commuter.) The secret is that if you change everything to 1x then you will not have any tight clusters to compare to.

Sent from my LEX727 using Tapatalk

[anomad]

Well you can still brake and shift with detached mechanisms, just one wheel though. Braking with the left and shifting with the right isn’t terribly awkward for me. Since I use the front brake primarily, both pedal and moto. The whole right/left thing between my moto and pedal bike takes a moment of adjustment though.

I’ve actually thought about putting bar end shifters and stand alone brake levers on my viaje. It has SRAM double tap right now that are really hard for me to shift precisely in the heat of the moment. Not a fan of those, generally speaking. I was an early adopter of bar end shifting back when everyone was using down tube shifters and always liked that set up. It was a significant safety improvement in that you didn’t have to take your hand off the bars to shift.

Racing or mountain biking on the other hand, I’m with you 100% on integrated.

[drevil]

@anomad 156890 wrote:

What is the attraction of no index shifting for you guys?

I prefer indexed shifting. The reason I’ll use shifters in friction mode is because it allows me to run 2, 3, 6, 8, 9, and 10 speed setups (of which I’ve done at different times on different bikes). If you look at the pic of my shifter, it’s of the left (front) shifter controlling 6 speed rear. It’s not faster, but it’s less finicky and always reliable.

Another important reason is if I want to run the bike singlespeed, I snip 4 zip ties, take off the rear derailleur, and pop off the shifter (it has a pivoting hinge) as one unit and throw it on the shelf, which takes less than 5 minutes. Swap the cassette for a single cog and some spacers, which takes about 3 minutes, and I’m back to singlespeed. Reverse for gears. I can do that now with I-Spec/Direct mount Shimano shifters, but I can’t run them in friction mode and I have to be particular about the speeds of the cassette.

EDIT: this is for a mountain bike/flat bar setups, not for drop bar. I use a Paul Shifter Mount with Dura-Ace barcon shifters.

[EasyRider]

I prefer friction because I’m used to it, and because my casual riding style doesn’t really take advantage of indexing or shift integration. If seconds counted, or I was riding in a crowd or on uneven terrain at a fast pace, especially in the drops, I’d want integrated shifting to keep my hands put and to shift without thinking about it. It’d be safer, for sure.

Another reason I like friction bar-end and downtube shifters is because I rarely ride on the hoods — only when I’m braking or am about to. I use old SR “Randnner” drops on my road bike, and the most comfortable hand position is the little upsweep on the ramps behind the hoods. I’d rather reach for a downtube or bar-end shifter than move my hand out to the hoods to shift. I also like friction shifting for the simplicity, and forward compatibility with the latest derailleurs. I like to be able to feel the angle of the shifters and know what gear I’m in without looking down at the drivetrain or at the shifter pod for a number. When I haven’t shifted quite right, and the chain rubs a bit, it’s just my bike talking to me, I like that too.

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