Can we talk about power?

[Harry Meatmotor]

@TwoWheelsDC 119906 wrote:

Should I be holding back during the 400W sections and then hammering to get my power up during the 100W sections?

yes.

one of the harder things about starting to train with power is learning to forget about speed, and worrying only about effort. And once you’ve matched perceived effort with your zones, you’ll get better and better at being able to maintain specific wattage range without staring at your garmin. Easy-ish uphill, really hard downhill is the key to normalizing your power through variable terrain. really… downhill = pedal your ass off.

And HR is kind of a crummy variable – it’s too inconsistent day-to-day and there’s much more with target HR zones that can get flubbed by diet/sleep/beerneuring/”good day/bad day”.

Oh, and don’t over do the “I’m just trying to get a solid FTP test” – it’s a slippery slope from data gathering to destroying your overall fitness in pursuit of the glamorous “perfect” FTP test.

doing three 20 minute FTP tests in 2 weeks while still maintaining a “regular” training schedule is gonna (usually) give you crummy numbers no matter what due to overtraining/lack of recovery.

[vvill]

Yeah most days when I have power on (and care about it) I ride with 3 sec power, 10 sec power, 30 sec power, lap power, lap distance, lap time (for intervals) plus cadence and HR on my Garmin (no speed variables).

One of the things I realized early one when having power is how much I was coasting (or putting in <100 W) when going downhill (even slight downhills). Of course it's not practical to put out decent power on say, a MUP that's even slightly downhill because you'll hit 25mph easily.

I would try to maintain a relatively constant effort for an FTP test, with a ramp up at the end to exhaust myself. On turns/signage where I’ll slow down I try to compensate with a quick burst to get back up to speed and keep the power as consistent as possible.

[Tim Kelley]

@TwoWheelsDC 119906 wrote:

Ugh. 20 minute test was a bit of a bust. While I was certainly tired after the test, I wasn’t falling-off-the-bike tired or about to hurl…more like “ugh, now I gotta ride home” tired. But I did think of a couple important questions. Like, should I be trying to maintain a constant power output, or a constant effort? My HR was pretty consistent throughout the test, but given the Fort Hunt loop, there were places I was doing like 100W, and others where I’d be doing 400W. Should I be holding back during the 400W sections and then hammering to get my power up during the 100W sections? Or do I do like I did and just let them average out?

Also, I learned yet again that I can sit in the anaerobic zone longer than I thought. I was running an HR average of 185 for 20 minutes and wasn’t really feeling like I was hitting the wall. I feel like I could’ve either run at like 190 average HR, or gone for at least another 5 minutes before I crapped out.

207w average seems quite low from what you’ve told us otherwise–and a 105 cadence seems a bit high, although your VI seemed generally okay, it could be lower.

Considering you only had an elevation gain/loss of 70ft total over 20 minutes, I’m surprised you couldn’t maintain a steady cadence. Were you doing this on a fixed gear/single speed?

Can you post the Strava/TP link for us to look at?

[Tim Kelley]

@TwoWheelsDC 119906 wrote:

Ugh. 20 minute test was a bit of a bust. While I was certainly tired after the test, I wasn’t falling-off-the-bike tired or about to hurl…more like “ugh, now I gotta ride home” tired. But I did think of a couple important questions. Like, should I be trying to maintain a constant power output, or a constant effort? My HR was pretty consistent throughout the test, but given the Fort Hunt loop, there were places I was doing like 100W, and others where I’d be doing 400W. Should I be holding back during the 400W sections and then hammering to get my power up during the 100W sections? Or do I do like I did and just let them average out?

Also, I learned yet again that I can sit in the anaerobic zone longer than I thought. I was running an HR average of 185 for 20 minutes and wasn’t really feeling like I was hitting the wall. I feel like I could’ve either run at like 190 average HR, or gone for at least another 5 minutes before I crapped out.

207w average seems quite low from what you’ve told us otherwise–and a 105 cadence seems a bit high, although your VI seemed generally okay, it could be lower.

Considering you only had an elevation gain/loss of 70ft total over 20 minutes, I’m surprised you couldn’t maintain a steady cadence. Were you doing this on a fixed gear/single speed?

Can you post the Strava/TP link for us to look at?

[TwoWheelsDC]

@Tim Kelley 120039 wrote:

207w average seems quite low from what you’ve told us otherwise–and a 105 cadence seems a bit high, although your VI seemed generally okay, it could be lower.

Considering you only had an elevation gain/loss of 70ft total over 20 minutes, I’m surprised you couldn’t maintain a steady cadence. Were you doing this on a fixed gear/single speed?

Can you post the Strava/TP link for us to look at?

https://www.strava.com/activities/343237628

This was on my regular road bike…although I tend to prefer a higher cadence. Overall, I thought my cadence was pretty steady, all things considered. Anyway…I’ll try again in a few weeks. The only reason I’m even worried about it is that I’m doing the bike portion of a triathlon relay next month, and it’s a relatively flat course that should take right about an hour, so knowing my FTP will give me a good target to stay focused during the ride.

[Tim Kelley]

@TwoWheelsDC 120044 wrote:

https://www.strava.com/activities/343237628

This was on my regular road bike…although I tend to prefer a higher cadence. Overall, I thought my cadence was pretty steady, all things considered. Anyway…I’ll try again in a few weeks. The only reason I’m even worried about it is that I’m doing the bike portion of a triathlon relay next month, and it’s a relatively flat course that should take right about an hour, so knowing my FTP will give me a good target to stay focused during the ride.

I think you just need to try riding harder. Rule 5.

When you are looking at power, what fields are you displaying on your Garmin? Like Will said, you should run a couple. I like 3 second and 30 second power and overall average power. Get your average power up to where you like it and don’t let that number drop on your 30 second power. I also like having “lap power” as a field and every 5 minutes of the test hitting Lap and bumping up the power. (Here’s an example of that build over time: https://www.strava.com/activities/71375589/analysis/3653/4840)

And yes, knowing your FTP would be very helpful in your triathlon relay, but even more telling would be using the adrenaline of the tri relay to come up with your FTP number!

Here’s a Ft Hunt track of mine from several years back pacing a friend during an FTP test: https://www.strava.com/activities/38271340/analysis I’d be happy to go out there one more before work if you like to pace you. Hans sounded interested too?

[hozn]

@Tim Kelley 120047 wrote:

Hans sounded interested too?

Yes, I am — just a question on which day / logistics. I might be able to do something later this week; I don’t know how good the data will be for me, but I’ll just treat it as a new ride location / experience and not worry so much about test cleanliness.

[vvill]

@Tim Kelley 120047 wrote:

I think you just need to try riding harder. Rule 5.

Agreed.

Considering TwoWheelsDC did the Tri360 KOM challenge segment in just over 4 minutes I would guestimate an FTP of at least 220W, or at least 230W+ for 20 minutes. (Assuming the same fitness levels as back then.)

[TwoWheelsDC]

@vvill 120167 wrote:

Agreed.

Considering TwoWheelsDC did the Tri360 KOM challenge segment in just over 4 minutes I would guestimate an FTP of at least 220W, or at least 230W+ for 20 minutes. (Assuming the same fitness levels as back then.)

I seem to be getting NP numbers of about 230ish on two hour hill rides (one was 261, but two are ~240 and two are ~220)…and Strava shows my estimated FTP is 230…So I guess that’s the number I’ll use as my baseline until I can do a really good test.

[TwoWheelsDC]

Hit 822W today racing Deirdre home (she in her car). It was actually about 2 miles in to a 3+ mile, pretty-much-all-out effort on my part, so maybe I can hit 1000W after all.

[vvill]

Pretty sure you can hit 1000W – even I can hit that.

I often assume at shorter durations the accuracy of the power number is lower anyhow, although don’t know if that’s actually true.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@vvill 121231 wrote:

Pretty sure you can hit 1000W – even I can hit that.

Hahahahaha…maybe, maybe I might see peak power numbers that are higher than yours occasionally, but that’s only because I’ve got like 40 pounds on you and, you know, physics. But I’d wager your power-to-weight is significantly higher than mine and your absolute peak is certainly higher.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@Tim Kelley 120047 wrote:

And yes, knowing your FTP would be very helpful in your triathlon relay, but even more telling would be using the adrenaline of the tri relay to come up with your FTP number!

My unadjusted average for the 40 minute effort was 262W (283W NP)…so clearly my initial estimates were way low and I am seriously bad at going “flat out” absent some external motivation. Interestingly, my 20 minute power was 269W, so not much dropoff from 20-40 minutes.

I had to experiment a bit with the power display. I found the straight power reading wasn’t very helpful, but using 3s Avg. and Lap Avg. combined with my HR helped me maintain what must’ve been pretty close to my maximum sustainable output. As the ride went on and my avg. power hovered in the high 250s/low 260s, I was worried I was going to blow up, but my HR was staying in a range that I felt comfortable maintaining, so I just kept up the pace. There was one final hill that I about maxed out my HR, but I knew that after that was basically downhill to the finish.

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/860234957

[Tim Kelley]

@TwoWheelsDC 121944 wrote:

My unadjusted average for the 40 minute effort was 262W (283W NP)…so clearly my initial estimates were way low and I am seriously bad at going “flat out” absent some external motivation. Interestingly, my 20 minute power was 269W, so not much dropoff from 20-40 minutes.

I had to experiment a bit with the power display. I found the straight power reading wasn’t very helpful, but using 3s Avg. and Lap Avg. combined with my HR helped me maintain what must’ve been pretty close to my maximum sustainable output. As the ride went on and my avg. power hovered in the high 250s/low 260s, I was worried I was going to blow up, but my HR was staying in a range that I felt comfortable maintaining, so I just kept up the pace. There was one final hill that I about maxed out my HR, but I knew that after that was basically downhill to the finish.

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/860234957

Wait, was it a 40 minute effort or a 60 minute effort?

Looks like your average power was 240 for an hour. I’d start with setting that as your FTP. Now go do you intervals based on 240.

Cadence was good–your IF was way high, but that’s a function of your FTP being set as 225. I be interested to see what your VI (variable index was–how much you were coasting)

Time for aerobars? That’d be an easy 10-15% increase in speed for the same effort.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@Tim Kelley 121945 wrote:

Wait, was it a 40 minute effort or a 60 minute effort?

Looks like your average power was 240 for an hour. I’d start with setting that as your FTP. Now go do you intervals based on 240.

Cadence was good–your IF was way high, but that’s a function of your FTP being set as 225. I be interested to see what your VI (variable index was–how much you were coasting)

Time for aerobars? That’d be an easy 10-15% increase in speed for the same effort.

20 minutes of the hour was the leisurely ride to the race…then maybe an hour of standing around (lap 1), then the 40 minute, 14 mile course (lap 2). It’s recorded as a single ride, but you can see the lap details if you look at the splits (unless that’s not visible in the link…).

**edit** Finally found out how to show VI in GoldenCheetah (which shows avg. power as 261 vs 262 in GC):

Interval Name Duration Distance (miles) Work (kJ) Average Power (watts) xPower (watts) Max Power (watts) Average Heart Rate (bpm) 95% Heartrate (bpm) Average Cadence (rpm) Average Speed (mph) VI

Lap 2 40:13 14.42 629 261 273 737 178 186 98 21.6 1.083

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