"Blocking the Box" — Enforcement (or lack thereof) in DC

[brendan]

@dasgeh 48102 wrote:

So it seems like everyone is confused on this point, at least in VA. The law seems to be: § 46.2-833. Traffic lights; penalty. , which, as I read it, allows drivers to pull into an intersection and wait to turn on green and doesn’t make (real) blocking the box illegal. I don’t know what they teach in VA.

Personally, I think traffic laws are best when they allow people to move around how they choose (1) safely and (2) efficiently. Where a right turn on red can be done safely (i.e. good sight lines, usage that’s more cars than people/bikes), I think it’s good for efficiency. But I think the penalties for acting unsafely should be higher and enforcement should be higher – e.g. if you cut off a pedestrian, there should be a hefty fine. Safety first, but efficiency is important too.

Box blocking is inefficient and inherently unsafe. Left-turn-after-red (assuming the street you’re turning on to is clear, so you’re not box blocking), is efficient and can be done safely.

That said, I think the pedestrian crossing adds an additional level of crossing to be considered? What if they entered late in the walk signal (let’s assume you can’t always see the count down the walker should have seen to decide if they’re going to clear before the light changes)? What if they are slow? Elderly? Disabled? Are you sure they aren’t? What if they have kids tagging along?

When I try to do my best to not be a crappy driver, if there are pedestrians about I’ll often be a bit more cautious than the average driver and wait to enter an intersection is there’s a chance that I could be trapped in there waiting for pedestrians to clear the way when the light turns. The last thing I want to do is be in a position to be stuck there when intersecting traffic is coming from my right, potentially blocking their view of the pedestrians and they gun it around me. Plus, depending upon intersection design, I might be blocking left turning traffic coming the opposite way as well, causing further delays when the light changes.

Usually it’s not the in-a-hurry intentional box-blocking I’ve been guilty of, it’s the unintentional due to unexpected blocks to my left trying to make a left turn. So, I tend to hold back a bit.

Brendan

[mstone]

@baiskeli 48108 wrote:

Yep, but then you won’t be blocking the box when the light turns red. So that works for a left turn. But when going straight, you should wait until there is room to cross all the way through the intersection so as not to get caught blocking it.

Yup, in a perfect world it all works out, and the victorious driver has saved a few seconds. In the real world, there are 6 cars in the intersection, and the last one just sits in the crosswalk through the whole next cycle. So I choose to just remain behind the line until all is clear. I think that making the decision to not push through the intersection has a real impact on making it safer for everyone; on the flip side, aggressively pushing for every few second’s advantage leads to tunnel vision, “I didn’t see you” collisions, and a more stressful environment for all users.

[dasgeh]

@mstone 48134 wrote:

aggressively pushing for every few second’s advantage leads to tunnel vision, “I didn’t see you” collisions, and a more stressful environment for all users.

I just don’t see this as aggressive. Again, where I learned to drive (and other parts of the country), it is what you’re supposed to do.

For example, I drive through the Lee Hwy/Kirkwood/Spout Run intersection all the time. It’s a WIDE intersection. If you’re turning left from EB Lee Hwy onto Spout Run, staying behind the stop line makes it harder to make the left turn on green non-arrow. Usually the way traffic works is the left gets the arrow, then both straights get green. At that point, there’s almost always traffic heading WB, but there’s almost always a large break in that traffic later in the light cycle. There’s plenty of room to move into the intersection and allow for good sight lines. In fact, pulling into the intersection gives you a better angle to see pedestrians along Lee Hwy. Probably 1/3 of the time I see someone stop behind of the stop line on the solid green. The annoying thing is that if you miss the light there, you can wait 30 seconds to a minute. And usually 3-4 cars could be in the intersection, so turn left on the yellow/red. Having seen the lights, I wouldn’t be surprised if the lights are timed with this in mind. So without making things less safe, you’re saving up to 4 minutes of people’s time. That’s not negligible. It’s not worth LAYING on the horn, but annoying.

To Brendan’s point, it’s true that pedestrians could enter the intersection too late to fully cross before they have the red. But those pedestrians are putting themselves in harm’s way of the traffic driving straight once the lights change, and the later-lefters are following the same path. I don’t see how the late-lefters are creating an additional hazard.

[baiskeli]

@mstone 48134 wrote:

Yup, in a perfect world it all works out, and the victorious driver has saved a few seconds. In the real world, there are 6 cars in the intersection, and the last one just sits in the crosswalk through the whole next cycle. So I choose to just remain behind the line until all is clear. I think that making the decision to not push through the intersection has a real impact on making it safer for everyone; on the flip side, aggressively pushing for every few second’s advantage leads to tunnel vision, “I didn’t see you” collisions, and a more stressful environment for all users.

I’d put it this way – sometimes you have the perfect situation to do it, sometimes you don’t. I don’t do it every time, or in every intersection.

[mstone]

@baiskeli 48206 wrote:

I’d put it this way – sometimes you have the perfect situation to do it, sometimes you don’t. I don’t do it every time, or in every intersection.

Yup. The key is to not have the expectation “I’m going to get through this light no matter what”, because that’s what kills people.

[Greenbelt]

They got another lane open northbound this afternoon, so hopefully box blocking all the way back to PA ave wasn’t a problem.

(I can’t see that direction from my office.)

[Rod Smith]

@TwoWheelsDC 48104 wrote:

…Sure, I think right-on-red or left-just-after-red CAN be safe, but they are still relatively complicated maneuvers involving a lot of variables that don’t come into play otherwise (turning through crosswalks, for instance). So I favor limiting these maneuvers, as their marginal potential for increased efficiency is offset by their increased complexity, which raises the likelihood of a bad outcome. Reducing complexity, to me, seems a more important goal than increasing efficiency, although I think the latter is usually a byproduct of the former, but not necessarily the other way around.

@mstone 48208 wrote:

Yup. The key is to not have the expectation “I’m going to get through this light no matter what”, because that’s what kills people.

The key is to not enter an intersection if there is no exit and never enter on a yellow. This is not difficult to understand. Where is the disconnect? If you want to be “efficient”, take the bus.

[baiskeli]

@Rod Smith 48694 wrote:

The key is to not enter an intersection if there is no exit and never enter on a yellow. This is not difficult to understand. Where is the disconnect? If you want to be “efficient”, take the bus.

We’re talking about the left turn, not going straight.

[Rod Smith]

“Can be safe” until you’ve hit a pedestrian. I’ve seen it happen. Not pretty.

[mstone]

@Rod Smith 48696 wrote:

“Can be safe” until you’ve hit a pedestrian. I’ve seen it happen. Not pretty.

It’s ok if you use the “I didn’t see him” excuse.

[Rod Smith]

@baiskeli 48695 wrote:

We’re talking about the left turn, not going straight.

Going straight just after the light changes to red is much less likely to result in vehicular manslaughter than turning left. My collarbone was busted by some jerk turning left. Obey traffic laws. Thank you.

[Rod Smith]

I apologize to baiskeli, dasgeh, twowheels,.. for not reading the thread before responding. @Rod Smith 48694 wrote:

The key is to not enter an intersection if there is no exit and never enter on a yellow. This is not difficult to understand. Where is the disconnect? If you want to be “efficient”, take the bus.

If you’re talking about parking in the intersection until it’s safe to proceed left, I suppose that’s OK where legal. If the street you’re turning onto is not backed up. Sorry for the confusion and rant. :p

[baiskeli]

@Rod Smith 48699 wrote:

I apologize to baiskeli, dasgeh, twowheels,.. for not reading the thread before responding.

If you’re talking about parking in the intersection until it’s safe to proceed left, I suppose that’s OK where legal. If the street you’re turning onto is not backed up. Sorry for the confusion and rant. :p

Yeah! Because you’ll never see ME responding to a post before reading it carefully!

No problem.

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